I've been watching this conversation for the past few months and I can't help but think that while Christine might have said "If Bob's there I'm not going", it didn't sound like she was the one keeping him out. If anything it was Mick who turned around and said "Well Christine won't come if Bob's there and Christine must be there, so keep Bob out."

Just because Mick said to you that it was Christine's fault just sounds like Mick trying to deflect the blame onto someone else. It was Christine's right not to turn up, it was only because Mick wanted her there more than he wanted Bob that he didn't stand up to her.

Should Bob be inducted? Of course, we've said that time and time again, but I'm not sure that it is going to happen unless someone can actually talk to Mick about it (and I don't mean you Wendy, because he's just going to avoid the question) and make Mick want to push the issue (there is no saying that the RRHOF will actually do it even if Mick was on our side).

Perhaps when FM start touring again and the fans start hanging around trying to talk to the band members, it should be a question that is asked again and again. Why isn't Bob in the HOF and what is being done about it.

Alternatively, does anyone have a personal email address for Mick?

Mick only cares about one thing, and that's his wallet. If Chris said it, he only saw $$$$ sign for his wallet, agreeing with her.

WHAT financial gain did Mick have to gain from Bob, at that point?


Just sayin', Mick Fleetwood is the hooker of FM.

I finally have to say at this point, having read a lot of presumptuous slurs against and slagging of Mick Fleetwood on this early years forum, some from people who hardly know him or don't even know him at all, that I have only known him to be a good, caring and generous man; giving to his own hurt while not making a big show of it.

Hi Jeremy, thanks for your balanced and informed comment. I just wondered if your induction mattered much to you? Here in the UK, I'm not sure I fully understand the Hall's significance. Like Bob Weston said, maybe half-jokingly, does one get a wax effigy? Forgive me being presumptious, but I get the impression that theres' a whole heap of stuff that would matter far more to you.

Kind Regards.

Well from my point of view, it wasn't necessarily about the money, it was just simply that if Christine did say she wouldn't be there if Bob was there, then Mick obviously wanted Christine there more than he wanted Bob there. Whatever those reasons were (perhaps for financial reasons, perhaps for the band, we may never know).

As for the negative comments about Mick, what we see is the public persona, which has often come across as being focused on the money. You know him privately better than any of us, but sadly that isn't the side the fans get to see (and it isn't just Mick, it has been a band problem for Fleetwood Mac since the late 1970's).

We want artists to release the music because of their love of the music and their love of the fans that support them. We've seen that from a lot of ex-Fleetwood Mac members, Bob Welch and yourself included (and Dave W, Bekka, Billy, Rick, Peter and others).

Agreed, though not sure on Peter as he was used (in the 80s and for the PGSG).

John

I've always been curious as to whether Peter was used in the early days of the PGSG. I kind of think that in the beginning Peter was just enjoying playing and Nigel as his friend helped nurture that along. Then after a little while perhaps Nigel (and probably others) got a little bit too accustomed to the lifestyle and the money. I do believe that Peter, at least in the beginning, was probably enjoying himself.

Further to what I said before, I think most fans expect that the artist needs to make a living from their music. We know that they don't just do it for the love, they do actually need to put food on the table too. I just think when some artists from FM hit the big time they kind of forget the music and fans and start only seeing the dollar signs.

Jeremy Spencer/Give me a break
 

What's the point, Jeremy. Do you even talk to Mick. Is he trying to get you back in the band. You know better, as I do. He always got more money than the other members of the band from Clifford Davis/Adams, saying it was because he had children and they didn't. Have you forgotten that?

I know Mick and have spoken to him many times. How long has it been since you spoke to him and how many times in the past 40 years? Just curious. I don't think it has been many times at all from what I understand. And wasn't the first time you spoke to Mick after all those years for "Man of the World: Peter Green", which was only a four or five years ago. You deserted the band in LA in February 1971 to join the Children of god and are still associated with them, for which you said you regretted treating them that way, as you should. Peter Green attempted to finish the tour and Bob joined the band at the same time to replace you.

Also, if you care to reach me privately in a message, I will be glad to talk to you in a private way. You can find me on facebook.

Peter Green
 

Also, as far as Peter Greenbaum ( his real name) did become schizophrenic and when I spoke to him when he had gotten out of the institute after over a decade, he was being used and living with Midge or is it Mitch, Clifford Davis' ex wife. He was under her control and very much being used by her and controlled by her and others. He was truly an innocent child. I spoke to him for over an hour or so in the late '90's and he definitely was not right, but he moved me. I so wanted to help him. If anyone didn't play music for money it was him. He pulled a gun on either the manager or the accountant, not sure which, if he sent him another check. He did not want his checks for his royalties and didn't believe in it in his mind space. He also could not concentrate enough to play with the other musicians in the band because he mentally just couldn't follow thru with it and would go off into tangents. I know Mick idolized Peter Green and gave him every chance he could. Peter was a genius, borderline. His song is still my favorite FM song, "Oh, Well". The song , his guitar playing and the lyrics were sheer genius, but he was so used and abused by so many. Ir is very sad. "Don't ask me what I think of you. I might not give the answer that you want me to. I talk to God and I know he understand. He said stick by me and I'll be your guiding hand." Who could say so much in such few words? God bless Peter Greene.

That's why Bob was urgently called by Judy Wong to move to England and join the band in February when Jeremy left FM in such a bind.

I keep up regular communications with Mick and John by phone and email. My wife and I spent a wonderful time with Mick in Dublin recently just before Christmas.

Mick has been pushing the idea of an "Original Fleetwood Mac" reunion ever since Peter and Jeremy did their "comebacks" in the late 1990s and 2000s. There are several interviews that can confirm that.
http://www.k-hits.com/musicnews/story.aspx?ID=1186831
The thing is that Jeremy and/or Peter didn't want to do it.

Could you elaborate on this please Wendy ?

Mick surely didn't get any songwriting royalties (unless some exceptionally democratic special arrangemet was made **)He surely wouldn't have got a higher percentage than the others from record sales ,as royalties from these would be split equally and if they werent it would be very dodgy So was it the money from touring ? And I would say ,that seeing as McVie and Fleetwood were not composers, they would have earned far less money than the other members of the band -the songwriters (unless ,as I said, some exceptional arrangement was made )and therefore may have had a valid case that they needed more money ?

** I read somewherr that Brian Epstien arranged for George Harrison and Ringo Starr to Split 5% of Lennon and McCarney's 40% when they made the original deal with Northern songs (just to be clear independent of Harrison's own songwriting)

[QUOTE=THD;1124577]touring ? And I would say ,that seeing as McVie and Fleetwood were not composers, they would have earned far less money than the other members of the band -the songwriters (unless ,as I said, some exceptional arragement was made )and therefore may have had a valid case that they needed more money ?

I forgot to add :

As we now know from the many documentaries about rock bands of the last forty years (Eagles ,Spandeau Ballet etc ), many bands split or continue struggling on, but with the band members hating each other , once it dawns on the non composing members just how much money the writers are getting in as a result of composing the songs - money from airplays round the world in addition to the performing on record money If the song is covered by another artist** that artists airplay and record sales all over the world can generate huge sums -other band members don't get that and it can be the root of great resentment !

** Santana band's coverage of Black magic Woman would be a classic example of this -Peter getting huge amounts of money as the writer -feeling very guilty about it (for his own reasons ) McVie , Spencer and Fleetwood, getting none of it (the Santana generated money ) unless Peter decided to privately give them some share of it !(Which he may have done for all I know !) That's the recipe for the break up of the original line up of this band but it broke up for possibly the antithesis of this, and not until they had reached (in my opinion )A great artistic peak prior to Peter's quiting !

Songwriters
 

Bands would be nothing without good songs. Even Stevie and other greats pay writers for some of the songs they sing and gladly. The songs make the band. If the band or an artist wants to write a song, then write. But don't expect to get paid for another's work, but as a matter of fact on Heroes and certain other FM songs the band did share in the publishing at one time. Surprise! Prior to that the manager owned 1/2 of all the songs from each writer and still does with Bob's early Mac songs today.

Bob Welch should be in RRHOF
 

Bob Welch, a former member of Fleetwood Mac who also had a solo career, died Thursday of a self-inflicted gunshot wound, police said. He was 65.

Officers were called to Mr. Welch's home on West Oak Highland Drive at 12:18 p.m. after the musician's wife discovered his body, Metro police spokesman Don Aaron said.

"He died from an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound to the chest," Aaron said. "A suicide note was found in the residence."

Mr. Welch was a guitarist and vocalist for Fleetwood Mac from 1971 to 1974. He formed the British rock group Paris in 1976 and had hits including Sentimental Lady in 1977 and Ebony Eyes in 1978. Fleetwood Mac's Christine McVie and Lindsey Buckingham did backing vocals on Sentimental Lady.

According to Aaron, family members told investigators that Mr. Welch had been dealing with health issues in recent months.

Family friend Bart Herbison, executive director of the National Songwriters Association, which includes the California Songwriters Association, the Nashville Songwriters Association International and the Texas Songwriters Association, said the musician had been through spinal surgery about three months ago.

"It had become apparent to Bob that he was not going to recover, that he was going to become an invalid," Herbison said. "He had seen his father become an invalid and watched his mother care for him for many years. In the letter he left, he told (his wife) Wendy, 'I'm not going to do this to you.' "

Herbison went on to say he'd never seen a couple more in love than Bob and Wendy Welch. He'd known them for about 15 years, he said.

"I've been privileged to meet a lot of famous musicians throughout the years," Herbison said. "Your fame and notoriety will take you to a lot of places where you have to go by yourself, but not Bob. He never went anywhere without Wendy."

Left band in 1970s

Fleetwood Mac's career took off in the mid-1970s after Mr. Welch left the band. "Dreams" was a No. 1 hit in 1977 and Don't Stop the same year. It later became the anthem for Bill Clinton's presidential campaign. "Hold Me" was a hit in 1982 and "Little Lies" in 1987.

Mr. Welch, a native of Los Angeles, scored his biggest hit with Sentimental Lady, which reached No. 8 on the Billboard chart. His other singles included Precious Love in 1979 and Hot Love, Cold World in 1978.

When Fleetwood Mac was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1998, Mr. Welch was not included in the group.

"It basically comes down to the fact that they don't like me anymore," he told The Plain Dealer of Cleveland at the time. "I guess they can do what they want. I could understand it if I had been a sideman for a year. But I was an integral part of that band. … I put more of myself into that band than anything else I've ever done."

Longtime Fleetwood Mac singer Stevie Nicks told The Associated Press that Mr. Welch's death hit her hard.

"The death of Bob Welch is devastating. … I had many great times with him after Lindsey and I joined Fleetwood Mac. He was an amazing guitar player — he was funny, sweet — and he was smart. I am so very sorry for his family and for the family of Fleetwood Mac — so, so sad. …"

Founding member Mick Fleetwood did not immediately respond to emails for comment Thursday.

As a songwriter, Mr. Welch had his songs recorded by Kenny Rogers, Sammy Hagar, The Pointer Sisters and others.

In 1999 he released a CD, Bob Welch Looks at Bop, a salute to bebop music in the 1940s.

In an interview with The Tennessean in 2003, Mr. Welch said he never dreamed he'd be remembered for much.

"I just wanted to play guitar in a good band," he said. "I wanted to make the music I love. I wanted to travel the world and have adventures."

Mr. Welch also said "music is disposable now. It doesn't have the emotional impact anymore. That's sad."

He had lived in Nashville since the 1990s.

An article from USA Today online might be of interest.

How The Rock Hall Decides Which Bandmates Get In
by Brian Mansfield. It's in the "Life" section of the website
www.usatoday.com .

[^That's interesting that they said they would change their handling of the announcement going forward because of the KISS controversy. I also read an article about the Rolling Stones manager Andrew Loog Oldham boycotting the ceremony. He was inducted, but he doesn't like the way they showcase the "stars" and then treat the contributions of others as if they aren't important at all. http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...axzz2yHQOQVhB]

Brian Mansfield, Special for USA TODAY 6:12 p.m. EDT April 7, 2014


http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/m...et-in/7210431/

Paul Stanley and Gene Simmons haven't hidden their displeasure that the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame chose not to induct Kiss' current members along with its original ones.

When Simmons told USA TODAY, "This organization decided to honor only a part of our history," he raised a question about how the hall decides which individuals to include when it ushers in a group.

Kiss will have its most famous faces inducted — Simmons, Stanley, Ace Frehley and Peter Criss — when the band joins the hall's ranks April 10 in a ceremony at Barclays Center in Brooklyn. But two who now wear the signature makeup (Eric Singer and Tommy Thayer), plus four other former members (drummer Eric Carr and guitarists Bruce Kulick, Vinnie Vincent and Mark St. John), won't get in.

EARLIER: Kiss feels dissed by the Rock Hall of Fame

Nirvana's former drummer Chad Channing, who played on 1988 single Love Buzz, the recording that made the group eligible for Rock Hall induction this year, will be left out, too.

Bruce Springsteen's E Street Band, on the other hand, will be welcomed in with a roster that encompasses early drummer Vini Lopez and keyboardist David Sancious, as well as its eight better-known members.

Groups get picked for induction for different reasons, says Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation president and CEO Joel Peresman, which means the hall's nominating committee will use different standards when deciding which bandmates to include. "Sometimes, it's the overall body of work; sometimes, it's a specific period in time and the people who comprised the band that put them on the map and gave them that influence and created that legacy," he says.

Historically, the Rock Hall has tended to choose a band's "classic" lineup for induction. For groups like The Beatles or U2, the choice is fairly simple. For others, it's more complicated. Practically everyone who ever played with the Grateful Dead was included when the group went into the hall in 1994. Metallica and the Red Hot Chili Peppers also have relatively inclusive hall memberships. Other induction lineups — like those for Lynyrd Skynyrd, The Temptations and Kiss — left out members who sang or played with the group for many years.

"The only rule they have is that they make their own rule with each band," Stanley says.

Peresman acknowledges that the Rock Hall's nominating committee, which consists of about 40 music industry executives, musicians and journalists, handles each decision about group membership on a case-by-case basis, in consultation with outside scholars.

"It's a little bit of opinion, but you have to go with the opinion of people who know these genres of music and can form a truly educated opinion," he says.

"The inconsistencies are there, and the hall has to live with them," says Neil Walls, who runs the Future Rock Legends website, which tracks artists' eligibility for the Rock Hall and determines their chances of induction."This is only going to come up again in the future," he says, pointing to Pearl Jam, which will be eligible for 2017 induction and is on its fifth, and longest-tenured, drummer. "They've got exceptions they've already put in, like the Chili Peppers, which will come back to haunt them."

The hall plans to change the way it announces group nominations as a result of the uproar over the Kiss exclusions, which led to the group refusing to play at the induction ceremony, and the confusion over Channing's, which Peresman says he learned of from a secondhand text message from Nirvana's management.

"Going forward, we'll be more clear-cut from the beginning and more public about who's being inducted," Peresman says. "(The next time) we announce the nominees, we'll make sure to say, 'Here are the people being nominated.' "

Contributing: Edna Gundersen

I'm not sure why it affects the RRHOF whether they induct just a classic lineup or whether they induct a whole band. I can't see the logic. In FM's case the founding bassist was excluded, two long serving vocalist/guitarists in Welch and Burnette, and five others just didn't fit in with whatever criteria they judged the band against. Personally I think they should have all been in. You are a member of a band, you are in.

Maybe the RRHOF tries to control who is present at the ceremony by who they induct. As Oldham pointed out, the ceremony is about television and publicity, not about music and rock and roll. Maybe the RRHOF only wants to induct people that will give their ceremony the most mass appeal.

Michele

Only in the most technical sense could John McVie not be considered a founding member. By all accounts, Brunning's hiring was purely temporary, and everyone knew it. Even if all the other members of FM, including Walker and Mason, were inducted, I still would not have included Brunning.

If you include Brunning, then you have to include Nigel Watson, Doug Graves, and other temporary members.

It's a little different with Brunning, he may have only been a "placeholder" in retrospect, but at the time it really WASN'T a "given" that John would join. Glad he did, but it wasn't set in stone at the time.

Watson was there because Peter dragged him along. Doug Graves (as well as Bobby Hunt) was on par with current/recent touring additions like Neale Haywood, Carlos Rios & Brett Tuggle et.al, plus Stevie's "girls"....hired hands for tour purposes only. (and Steve Thoma, keyboardist during the '94/'95 tours) There wasn't any pretense of band "membership" at all in their hirings. Even the same could be said for Christine during the Kiln House album sessions & subsequent tour...I don't think she really was officially a member until after the tour & the Future Games sessions began.

We are never going to agree on this issue sadly :lol: Brunning was a member hired with the understanding that if and when McVie left Mayall that he was out the door. That issue could have gone on for 3 months or 3 years.

As for Doug Graves, well we've been over this ground in another thread. Was he a temporary member, was he (at least by his own understanding) a permanent one.

Watson was hired solo for the tour (hell he wasn't even hired he kind of just tagged along with Peter) :laugh:

Question is was Brunning a member of the band OR was he a temporary employee of the band???

Simplest question...if Brunning wasn't on stage at the Windsor Jazz Festival, who would've been Fleetwood Mac's bass player?

John McVie was still a member of the Bluesbreakers, so, yeah, Brunning was a member. It wasn't a given that McVie would ever leave Mayall.

Was Pete Best a member of the Beatles? Yes. Was he replaced? Yes. So, he was a temporary member. Yes.

Hell, were Peter Green, Jeremy Spencer, Danny Kirwan replaced? Yes. So, you can call them temporary members, too....but, while they WERE in the band, they were viewed as permanent members. End of argument. Next topic.

This article made me think of the Fleetwood Mac RRHOF drama when I read it:

http://www.austin360.com/ap/ap/ohio/...iss-off/nfWfF/

Sounds like Bob Welch is far from the only one jilted/displeased with the RRHOF. I take the RRHOF about as seriously as I do the Grammy's... which is about the lowest insult I can sling. It might almost be a badge of honor that Bob isn't included in the dretch that is the RRHOF.

I'll give you this, but one point of correction. Christine was announced as an official member of the group before the American tour of Kiln House. It was reported as such and can be found in one or two articles in the archive.

Here is one from March 1971, when she'd already been with them for more than six months:

http://bla.fleetwoodmac.net/index.ph...v2&id=1047&c=2

I seem to remember not that long back someone posting an article about Doug Graves being named a member and there is the footage of FM being introduced with new band member Doug Graves. :laugh:

But Doug Graves never did an interview six months later, did he? The March 71 article I posted is still long in advance of the Future Games recording and still in advance of the end of the Kiln House tour. That's all.

Graves didn't even make it through the entire '74 tour...they got Bobby Hunt to play the last 4 or 5 shows. (Graves played the Don Kirshner's Rock Concert filming and did a couple of those "live in studio" recordings Sept - Nov '74, but Bobby Hunt was playing those final December shows...I know, I was at both the Kirshner taping and one of the final 2 shows of the tour)

Graves was engineer or 2nd engineer on Heroes Are Hard To Find & was most likely asked to play keys to "fill out the sound" (sound familiar?) for the tour. Don't know WHY he was swapped out for Bobby Hunt, except that Bobby had been in one (or more) of Bob Welch's pre-Fleetwood Mac bands and there was that connection.

Kirshner introduced the band one at a time...what's he gonna do? Leave out Doug Graves? Who was obviously on stage playing with the band. I think Don just overstepped his bounds introducing him as a "member". It'd be like somebody introducing Neale Haywood as a member nowadays.

This is just pure speculation, but I would guess that Burnette, Vito, Mason and Bramlett would have had something in their contracts that they would be out of the band if you-know-who decided to return. In that sense, they could have been seen as "placeholders" too.

I think it was me who posted that Kirshner clip re Doug Graves. To me it all seems a bit ambiguous...and there was that quote from Graves that appeared to indicate he thought he was in the band itself. But I don't want to rake over all that again....:shrug:

Vito and Burnette were already in the band when CM was still there (TITN tour, 1988 GH, Behind The Mask, etc.) so doubt they had such issues. At least CM sang back up on some of Bekka's Time tracks so I doubt they had issues. Mason on the other hand may have been different but I think Mick knew that from day one of getting DM in that if she came back this would have to change, as far as what she wanted was concerned (as it sounds like she had more of an issue with him than he did with her).

CM joined FM in Aug '70. The Dragonfly/Purple Dancer single was the first thing released with CM as a member (There were some immigration and contractual delays for making her a member due to her still being under contract with Blue Horizon as a solo artist when the decision was made to have her join as a member).

John

I doubt that. At the time (1994) Lindsey had just come off his OotC tour the previous year in which while promoting his solo tour, he wasn't saying all that nice of things about Mick & Fleetwood Mac in interviews...pretty much torching that bridge. At the same time, Stevie was pretty down about Mick & therefore Fleetwood Mac, as well, over the whole "Silver Springs" issue. It wasn't all that farts & giggles when they did the Clinton inauguration...they pretty much all said that they'd do it, then wish they hadn't when it came time for them all to do it.

At that point, there weren't any "placeholders" in Fleetwood Mac, they were who they were...Mick, John, Bekka, Billy & Dave (with Steve Thoma on the road and Christine in the studio). That WAS Fleetwood Mac. At that point, there was probably better odds that Peter, Jeremy & Danny would come back than Lindsey & Stevie. So, doubt if there was anything stipulated in any contracts.

"Induction Denied: Bob Welch's Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Tragedy''
 

:confused::confused::confused:We all feel that singer/songwriter/guitarist Bob Welch (formerly of Fleetwood Mac) should be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. We feel that Welch has been treated most unfairly by the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and heres why:

When Fleetwood Mac was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, former Fleetwood Mac singer, songwriter and guitarist Bob Welch was snubbed despite the fact that he was a key member of the band from 1971-74! Bob Welch played guitar, sang lead vocals and wrote many of the songs on 5 Fleetwood Mac albums. Mick Fleetwood himself has said that Bob Welch was a major part of Fleetwood Macs survival and yet Welch has still not been inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. We believe that no satisfactory reason has been given for why Welch was not inducted, and that the situation must be rectified by inducting Bob Welch into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

You might add that he was also the front man for the band ,doing the intros and chit chat between numbers (at least that's how I remember it !)

true
 

very true!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Today I heard Sentimental Lady. I love that song but it made me sad because it made me think about the way his life.

Okay, I'm going to make some people pretty p'd-off here...

I can honestly understand why Bob was not inducted into the RnR Hall of Fame. I think he's a great musician, a very good song writer and a solid guitarist. There's absolutely no denying he kept the band together and for four years or so FM evolved around his talent. Some of his compositions feature in my all-time FM lists. Add in that he always seemed to be a really, really nice guy.

However, the whole point of the HOF is to recognise those who achieve significant things and influence others. Bob's record isn't great.
With FM:
5 albums. Highest chart: 34 (US)
Solo/non-FM- highest chart 12 (US)

I love the period from 1970-75. I so wish he had been part of the band with Stevie and Lindsey. I so wish they'd turned to him when Lindsey left in 87 and even after that I'd dreamed of a mass get-to gather-featuring Bob.

However, Bob was not a very talented guitarist and his song-writing (though extremely interesting) was limited. His record (chart-wise) with FM was not great and his time after FM was only moderately successful. There are loads of artists/bands that had his level of success and much, much more. If he hadn't had a link to FM there would have been no argument to be made.

I feel a bit hypocritical in that I've signed the petitions. I'm not against him being inducted per-se. But I can well understand why he wasn't. I appreciate there are plenty of bands that inducted all members. Equally (and more so?) there are bands that didn't induct all members.

I don't think his omission was a major mistake but I do think he was a major artist who played a majorly significant role in the history of this band. RIP Bob Welch.

Thanks for this great article. A nice peak into their past history, straight from the mouth of Ms. Perfect.

Regarding FuzzyPlum's comments justifying Bob Welch's omission from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Blasphemy! Reasoning that because the period in which he was in the band wasn't commercially successful was a good reason to omit him. So all it was on his shoulders?? Wow. Bob's rolling over in his grave, and I'm standing up for Bob, for he is responsible for keeping the band alive. Sure, he had some weaknesses (as all of them do), but he was the vital link in the chain that kept the band going. Christine has acknowledged that in past interview.

Nothing new but quite an interesting article...


Huffington Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roger-...b_9619494.html

Deep Purple Bassist Nick Simper’s Hall of Fame Snub
Roger Weisman
Playwright, raconteur, and media/culture writer
Trying in Vain to Find Logic in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame’s Induction Process


This year, Deep Purple, the classic English rock band that is credited with helping to lay the groundwork for heavy metal, is finally being inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Having been eligible since 1993, many believe that this honor is long overdue, and others feared it would never happen as more and more diverse acts meet the 25 year mark required for admittance.

As is the case with many bands, Deep Purple included many musicians over the years, which presents the problem of deciding which members are to be honored. Usually the Hall recognizes members of “classic” lineups, whatever that means. In the case of Deep Purple, there are a number of omissions for various reasons. Current members Steve Morse (who replaced the notoriously cantankerous founding guitarist Ritchie Blackmore in 1994) and Don Airey (who took over the keyboard chair from Jon Lord in 2002) are not included, in spite of their years in the band. In addition, in spite of their popularity (largely due to other projects) the one-album stints of guitarist Tommy Bolin and vocalist Joe Lynn Turner were not enough to warrant inclusion. In the end, the Hall chose to induct all of the members from the band’s inception in 1968 up to the departure of Blackmore in 1975.

All except for Nick Simper, the founding bassist who played on the first three albums including the hit single, “Hush.”

Commenting in Classic Rock magazine, Simper himself seemed to take the snub in stride and did not blame his old bandmates. “Yes, it is a little strange that I am [the] only one from Marks I, II and III being left out, but I shan’t lose any sleep over this. It’s not as if I need to be given this award to know what we did in Deep Purple made an impact. And I’m sure it wasn’t a decision that came from the band.”

Even considering that the band did not achieve their greatest success or even their defining sound until his departure in 1969, his exclusion is quite inexplicable. After all, vocalist Rod Evans, whose tenure with band ended at the same time as Simper’s, is being honored, in spite of controversy and a lawsuit around fraudulent use of the band name.

Interviews with numerous Hall of Fame acts back up Simper’s belief that the groups themselves do not necessarily choose the inductees. I have tried to find the specific rules as to who is to be included, and who makes these decisions, but in vain. Even searching for consistency in the list of members proves to be problematic. In my search for a set of criteria, I found numerous examples which simply contradict each other.

The only thing I ever found that suggested a concrete rule was in the case of Jack Sherman, erstwhile guitarist for the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Sherman was vocal in his disappointment at being snubbed when the band was inducted in 2012. Though the decision was ostensibly made by the Hall of Fame, Sherman believed that the decision was influenced by the band itself. Told that induction was limited to “original and current members, and those who played on multiple records,” he believed that it was technicality designed to exclude him and Jane’s Addiction guitarist Dave Navarro, who played on the band’s 1995 album One Hot Minute when long-time member John Frusciante had taken a hiatus from the band. By these criteria, Sherman, who played on the first album but was not a founding member, did not qualify. In a turn of events that must have been particularly insulting, current guitarist Josh Klinghoffer, who had only a full member of the band for three years and had been all of four years old when the band was founded in 1983, did receive the honor of inclusion. This strange technicality made Klinghoffer the youngest member of the Hall of Fame.

The “original and current members, and those who played on multiple records” rule does explain many omissions, but not all. It does not explain the exclusion of Fleetwood Mac guitarist Bob Welch in 1998. Though Welch not a member of the original band or its later classic Rumours line-up, he was a pivotal member for several years and albums and was essential to saving a fracturing band while helping it make the transition from blues-infused hard rock to the pristine pop rock for which it is best known. Welsh attributed the snub to a then-recent breach of contract lawsuit between him and his former bandmates. This of course, would be a fallacious argument if the band indeed did not have some sort of say in who was inducted.

But apparently the band may have some say. When the Rolling Stones were inducted in 1989, the band requested that founding pianist Ian Stewart (“Stu”) be inducted with them, even though he was fired from the band (or to be more specific, was demoted from band member to session musician and road manager) before their first album. This decision was made by the Stones’ manager, Andrew Loog Oldham, who argued that the stocky, square-jawed Stewart did not fit the image of the young rebellious band. Jagger, Richards, and company, however, held him in high esteem. Keith Richards would frequently say, even after Stu’s death in 1985, “I still feel like I’m working for him. It’s his band.” They presented the argument to the Hall that, in spite of the fact that he had never been credited as a band member on any album, as a founder, he should be eligible. Now while he technically fits the rule that excluded Jack Sherman, as a member who was not terribly well known, it is hard to imagine that the Hall would have automatically inducted Stewart if it were not for the band’s intervention.

The current member factor seems to be used quite inconsistently. When the Grateful Dead were inducted in 1994, keyboardist Vince Welnick had been in the band for less than 4 years, but was still included . Meanwhile, when the Allman Brothers Band were so honored the following year, only original members were inducted, ignoring not only members from the mid 70s, when their popularity was at its zenith, but also then-current members including Warren Haynes, who was not only instrumental in their comeback six years earlier, but would later prove to be the glue that would hold the band together over the next couple of decades.¹

Now, I do not intend to slight Klinghoffer, but personally, I believe that Haynes is far more deserving of the honor.

Which leads me back to the case of Nick Simper. Before Deep Purple, Simper had played with a number of working English bands in the early sixties. Notably, he was the last bass player for Johnny Kidd and the Pirates, a hugely influential group whose single “Shakin’ All Over” became a rock staple and was famously covered by The Who on their Live at Leeds album. Admittedly a late-comer to the group, Simper had the sad distinction of being present (and injured) in the car crash that killed Kidd. He would later do a stint in Screaming Lord Such and the Savages before playing in the Flower Pot Men with Jon Lord.

It was Lord who recommended Simper to fill the role as bassist in Deep Purple, a band that he was starting with guitarist Ritchie Blackmore. When singer Rod Evans came to audition, he brought along his drummer Ian Paice, and the lineup of what would later be known as Deep Purple Mark I, would be complete. That lineup, which played a blend of proto-progressive and psychedelic rock, would find modest success and tour internationally.

Simper and Evans would be fired in 1969 due to the desire of Blackmore, Lord, and Paice to take the band in a heavier direction. Simper would play with a number of bands over the ensuing decades, but would never find the same level of success. Evans would resurface in Captain Beyond, a band that included former members of Iron Butterfly and Johnny Winter’s band. Not quite a “supergroup”, they were at the very least a “pretty-nifty-group.” They released a couple of well received, if not hot selling albums, before Evans left the music business to work as a respiratory therapist.

Unfortunately, Evans’ story took a pitiable turn in 1980, when he was recruited by a disreputable promotion company to participate what would be a Deep Purple reunion in name only, with a group of hired guns (apparently Simper was also approached, but turned down the offer). After a few warm-up gigs, the band was set to play at the 12,000 seat Long Beach Arena. On the day of the show, the managers of (the real) Deep Purple placed a half page ad in the LA Times informing audiences that no members of the band’s most popular Mark II and III lineups would be performing. The show went on as scheduled, and went off poorly. Sound problems abounded, the band was below subpar, and angry fans, realizing they’d been duped, began leaving immediately, many asking for refunds. A lawsuit was brought against Evans (assumed by many to be at the behest of guitarist Ritchie Blackmore) which resulted in his loss of all future Deep Purple royalties. It is a sad and embarrassing story and one does have to wonder how Evans, who was described by his former band mate, Bobby Caldwell, as an “intellectual giant” (although, to be fair, this is by rock star standards [ducks]) would have allowed himself to be roped in to such a dubious enterprise.

When I saw that Evans was being inducted and that Simper was not, I was perplexed. I don’t think that Evans should be excluded for events of over thirty years ago, but why was Simper excluded when his parallel tenure with the band was not marred with controversy? Who decided? Do the bands in question really have as little say as we are led to believe? Were there inter-band politics that we do not know about, or is it just another example of the bassist not getting any respect? This situation with Nick Simper and Deep Purple, above all others, indicates to me that there really is no rhyme or reason. Even if one argued that rules changed from year to year, this case indicates a complete lack of logic within itself.

If anyone can shed light on this, please let me know. Looking at these and other cases, it seems to me that the decisions of who gets in and stays home and bitterly watches the ceremony on TV, are taken on a case by case basis and based more on whims than specific criteria. We may never know the answer, but the case of Nick Simper once again highlights the irregularities and inconsistencies of the induction process of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

(¹The only reason I can imagine for this strange paradox is that Welnick joined a band that played together more or less continuously for several decades, as opposed to Haynes who joined a band that was reforming after having been broken up for several years. It’s not much, but it’s all I got, and it would explain the absence of Deep Purple’s Steve Morse and Don Airey.)

Steve Miller Tears Into Rock and Roll Hall of Fame After Induction
 

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Though gracious in accepting his 2016 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction, Steve Miller wasn’t so kind backstage afterward. He offered withering criticism of the entire exercise, zeroing in on the way organizers dealt with honorees.

“The whole process needs to be changed from the top to the bottom,” Miller told reporters in the press room of the Barclays Center in Brooklyn, N.Y. “They need to get their legal work straight. They need to respect the artists they say they’re honoring, but they don’t.”

Specifically, Miller said he didn’t prearrange for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame to use his music or footage for the ceremony – and, in fact, still didn’t have a signed agreement. He also said organizers provided tickets for only him and his wife. They informed Miller that his fellow band members would have to pay their own way, with passes running as much as $10,000 a piece, he said.

At that point, a publicist for the induction ceremony attempted to cut Miller off – but he pressed on. “We’re not gonna wrap this one up,” Miller said, insisting the publicist sit down so that he could continue. “This is how close this show came to not happening, because of the way the artists are being treated right now.”

Miller’s stern commentary followed a hits-packed Hall of Fame set that began with “Fly Like An Eagle,” then continued through “Jet Airliner” before concluding with “The Joker.” He was inducted by the Black Keys.


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