Break Down of Kiln House
 

I don't own this one so I'll just let you all start.

Great-Station Man
Good-Blood On The Floor, Hi Ho Silver, Jewel Eyed Judy, Earl Gray, One Together, Tell Me All The Things You Do, Mission Bell
OK-This Is The Rock, Buddy's Song

Great: Hi Ho Silver, Earl Gray, Mission Bell
Good: This is the Rock, Station Man, Jewel Eyed Judy, Buddy's Song, Tell Me All the Things You Do
OK: One Together, Blood on the Floor

-Lis

Simply The Best: Jewel Eyed Judy

Great/Good: Station Man, Earl Gray, One Together, Mission Bell

Ok I guess: This Is The Rock, Hi Ho Silver, Buddy's Song, Tell Me All The Things You Do

Awful: Blood On The Floor

Simply The Best: Jeremy Spencer shines! :thumbsup:

Great: One Together, Mission Bell, Station Man, This Is The Rock, Jewel Eyed Judy

Good: Buddy's Song, Earl Gray, Tell Me All The Things You Do, Hi Ho Silver

Ok: Blood On The Floor (a parody-of-sorts in song, not bad either, with typical Spencer staging)

The whole album is solid :: no really weak tracks IMO

Of Note: Kirwan & Spencer's guitar magic, with some sweet backing vocals from Christie McVie :angel:

Great: Station Man, Hi Ho Silver, Jewel-Eyed Judy, Buddy's Song, and Tell Men All the Things You Do

Good: This is the Rock, Earl Grey, One Together, Mission Bell

Passable: Blood on the Floor

Kiln House is one of those rare, earhty classics without any pretention or glitz. It's as authentic as anything on the Stones' Exile on Main Street--perhas more so, since FM weren't trying to be rootsy. They were just being themselves. All of the songs are catchy and played with an earnest charm so far removed from the Tango years you'd think it was not only a different band but a different century.

Incidentally, I love the BBC-live versions of Hi-Ho Silver (Honey Hush) and Buddy's Song. I also love the live versions of Station Man on Madison Blues, especially the second one, where Danny rips the **** out of the guitar solo.

Great: This is the Rock, Station Man, Hi Ho Silver, Jewel-Eyed Judy, Buddy's Song, and Tell Me All the Things You Do

Good: Blood on the Floor, Earl Grey, One Together, Mission Bell

"Mission Bell" has grown on me over the years...I used to dislike it immensely, but then I heard the original '50s hit again...Fleetwood Mac does it much better; even though it's more than faithful to the original. I left "Earl Grey" in the "GOOD" section...it's far & away not the quality FMac instrumental like other both earlier AND later Kirwan instrumentals; but, it is an improvement over its earlier incarnation under the title "Farewell" on the Vaudeville Years set.

aleuzzi: Kiln House is one of those rare, earthy classics without any pretention or glitz. All of the songs are catchy and played with an earnest charm so far removed from the Tango years you'd think it was not only a different band but a different century.

On the head! Refreshing, with a slight 50s-retro, country-tinged feel to it. You can also swing most of the GOOD songs to GREAT depending on your mood or time of day. I also like your "live" comments.

chiliD: "Mission Bell" has grown on me over the years...I used to dislike it immensely, but then I heard the original '50s hit again...Fleetwood Mac does it much better.

Funny you mention that. I remember going through a similar transformation, of not fully appreciating its charms initially (but that was a few decades back lol). But boy did that change as time went on. John carries that song with his gorgeous bass line, accented by taps and chimes. Jeremy's vocals are spot on, with Christy's additional backing sending it further skyward (including the opening refrain of "Say You Love Me" - how fitting). And then it ends! [the greatest gems always are short and sweet, you know]

Earl Gray - Danny continuing the tradition first set by PG with Albatross, Fleetwood Mac, Underway, etc., the instrumental interlude or closer. The tradition rolled on in Kirwan's My Dream and Sunny Side Of Heaven, then Welch's arpeggio laden Safe Harbor and spacey "semi" Coming Home. And lastly, Weston's ethereal Caught In The Rain from the Penguin project.

Hank Marvin & the Shadows' "Midnight" anyone?

ps
 

And lest someone call me on it, how could I overlook "World In Harmony", the only track ever to receive a "Kirwan, Green" joint songwriting credit (though it sounds a tad more K than G to these ears).

What I like about Mission Bell is the first 15-20 seconds. With Christine McVie singing back-up, it sounds like a Marty Balin/Grace Slick Jefferson Airplane song. That's what Kirwan brought to FM, his pop sensibilities.

I let a friend borrow Kiln House who happens to like the Green/Kirwan era. I was trying to point out that there was life after Green's departure. When he heard Tell Me All the Things You Do, he thought the song was incomplete. I think he has a point, it's just a verse without a chorus or bridge. I already knew that, yet I still love the song.

It was the B-side to "The Green Manalishi". You're right that it's more Kirwan than Green, Kirwan had the original idea.

My greats and goods:

Great: Station Man, Jewel Eyed Judy, Earl Grey, This is the Rock, Hi-Ho Silver, Tell Me All the Things You Do

Good: Blood on the Floor, Mission Bell (after the intro), One Together, Buddy's Song (I'd rather have Linda on this album)



Call me crazy but, I think Jewel Eyed Judy had an influence on Freddie Mercury and Brian May. Along with The Green Manalishi, I think both future members of Queen were listening to this period of FM. Kirwan's use of dynamics in the chorus of Jewel Eyed Judy is what Queen borrowed in later years. DK took Green's solo approach as a guitarist, and applied it to songwriting.

I love Kiln House...such a transitory album - and the first to feature Christine - as a sessions player! I have a friend in her 50's . When she found out I was a Fleetwood Mac fan, she immediately mentioned the Kiln House album. She is just a passing fan, but she said that album was very popular among her friends when it came out. (I burned her a copy. ) She was really sentimental about it (Sentimental Lady... but that's another album). It was such an out-of-left-field moment.
I love that the Rumours era band early on covered Station Man & Tell Me All The Things They Do. They certainly BuckinghamNicksed them.

Marty Balin/Grace Slick <=> Jeremy Spencer/Christie McVie might be even more apropos me thinks.
Don't forget David LaFlamme/Pattie Santos, another dynamite duo from the city by the bay.

When he heard Tell Me All the Things You Do, he thought the song was incomplete. I think he has a point, it's just a verse without a chorus or bridge. I already knew that, yet I still love the song.

Same here. Hot guitar licks, nice pump, but the song is only a B compositionally. That's why I rated it as Good only. Earl Gray was toughest for me. That could go on either side of the fence, in fact it really should be Great but for its melancholy aura.

It was the B-side to "The Green Manalishi". You're right that it's more Kirwan than Green, Kirwan had the original idea.

Ah good to know. Peter probably rounded it out a bit.

Call me crazy but, I think Jewel Eyed Judy had an influence on Freddie Mercury and Brian May.

Interesting notion. Brian had such a unique guitar tone and style, and of course Freddie with his theatrical pop embrace... I can see shades of what you're getting at. Call it the intersection where May meets McCartney = *Kirwan Boulevard* lol

Hey slipkid, consider revisiting the 'Interesting Read' thread and tossing in your 2 cents on the question I left there at the end re the Welch+Weston duo. I'd be interested in your take on MTM, and why so many blues purists - bless their pointed little heads - are such snobs when it comes to giving "Welch love." Make sure you put a good ear to MTM before casting your pearls.

Hey PenguinHead, you can't post to a thread like this one without playin' the ranking game. You know the rules.

But more importantly, inquiring minds would love to know. :p

CORRECTION: Christine's first Fleetwood Mac album as a session player was Mr. Wonderful. In fact, to date, the only Fleetwood Mac albums she's not on are Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac and Blues Jam Session At Chess/Fleetwood Mac In Chicago.

Do you know the extent of her involvement on Mr. Wonderful? I recall her unaccredited fills on keys on TPO, but do you know of any vocal backings prior to the KH sessions? If so, point them out!

She only played organ or piano on any recording prior to "Kiln House". Check out the outtakes of "Need Your Love So Bad" from disc 3 (Pious Bird of Good Omen) of the Blue Horizon Sessions box set. There are several versions with Christine playing either organ or piano. I prefer the organ version because it's without strings.


Sorry about Mission Bell, I forgot that was Spencer who was singing.

This is true. In fact, her presence on Mr. Wonderful is arguably more substantial than it is on Kiln House. Her piano playing on the Green tunes is inspired, even more so than her playing with Chicken Shack, I think, because she's interacting with better players.

On Mr. Wonderful, she plays piano on all of the Peter Green compositions. (Jeremy, according to Mike Vernon and clear aural evidence) plays piano on his own tunes. So, she's directly involved with half the album. Her presence here is substantial.

On Then Play On, she plays piano on Coming Your Way--and possibly one or another tune.

On Need Your Love So Bad, she plays organ. There are several out takes of her trying the tune first on piano.

On Kiln House, she sings harmony on Station Man. I'm pretty sure she's the uncredited keyboardist on TMATTYD. I think Jeremy plays a more primitive piano on all the rest of the tunes.

She does not play at all on the Mac's first album, their Live in Chicago dates, or a number of their singles and early Danny compositions.

slipkid: She only played organ or piano on any recording prior to "Kiln House".

That's what I always thought. If there was some surprise vocal track somewhere I would have loved to discover it.

slipkid: Sorry about Mission Bell, I forgot that was Spencer who was singing.

Easy to do. In the higher register, he sounds amazingly similar to Kirwan.

aleuzzi: This is true. In fact, her presence on Mr. Wonderful is arguably more substantial than it is on Kiln House.

I never really knew the extent of it on MW, probably because I don't spin that one up as often as I should. And then of course Jeremy is always sneaking his hands on the keys, so there's inevitable confusion when you don't put an attentative ear to it. Remember Oh Well? I guess we can all be thankful compilation notes occasionally surface, though there's a shortage of them around my place. :distress:

Christy was such a talented blues pianist, I know the guys all admired her abilities, Green leading the pack.

aleuzzi: On Kiln House, she sings harmony on Station Man.

She sings on more than that.

aleuzzi: I'm pretty sure she's the uncredited keyboardist on TMATTYD. I think Jeremy plays a more primitive piano on all the rest of the tunes.

If that's not her on TMATTYD, I don't know who it is. Jeremy wasn't bad either though, I wouldn't call his playing primitive by any means. A completely different style than Christie's, with more honky tonk elements infused. Most of what we hear on KH is JS. That production is every bit as much his as Danny's, he really shines throughout. But it's to DK's credit he was reined in a bit, and didn't go off the mocksong deep end. As it was, he was perfectly measured. I often wish they did a follow up, with Christy fully credited, but Jeremy's heart just wasn't in it. Of course they were all apprehensive, borderline gloomy, as to a future without PG.

BTW CM would not have remained uncredited on that project except for contractual litigation [CS] going on at the time preventing it.

aleuzzi: Her piano playing on the Green tunes is inspired, even more so than her playing with Chicken Shack, I think, because she's interacting with better players.

Me thinks you're onto something here, for sure. Actually Chicken Shack is a pale comparison to what the Mac could deliver, there is no real comparison. Some back in the day used to call them Chicken ****, but that might be carrying it too far. More of that had to do with Stan Webb (the mumbler bumbler, king of "What's that Stan?") than Perfect. She was universally liked - and generally preferred. But Webbie could entertain, if nothing else. wOOt wOOt :laugh:

In hindsight, I think adding Kirwan was an odd (though brilliant) decision. Christine would have, IMO, been the most obvious choice. Of course, if that HAD happened, I doubt the band would have made it to 1975.

Totally agree, but that's to Peter and Mick's credit - and foresight. Pete was looking for support and additional bounce, and he found it in spades with Danny. Kirwan brought the best out in Green, just as PG elevated DK to new heights with his mentoring. It was a great duo, no way around it.

This isn't to shortchange Christine, as really she, John and Mick form the continuum throughout. A big part of the "consistency factor" is due to them always being there, on all the projects. But circa 1969 ~ 1970, Christie could not bring to the table what Danny could. He was the full package, a fuse fully lit and ready to take off (in more ways than one).

Danny also introduced harmony to Fleetwood Mac, which furthered heightened their shift from their purer blues-rock roots. Beyond his melodic lead vocals, listen closely to his voice pairings with Jeremy, with Christie, with Bob. It's all good. And on the guitar, his improvisational gifts and slick string bends aside, his sense of rhythm was second to none. As I see it, Green begat Kirwan, and Kirwan set the tone for the rest of Fleetwood Mac history, right up to the present. I see all the other players as adding to this ongoing evolution, substantially for sure, but he was the genesis of it all (and chops to Peter for letting that happen).

PS. There's a reason Danny got the FM HOF nod when Welch, Weston, Walker, Burnette, Vito, Mason and Bramlett didn't (but of course that's another story, as they ALL should have been included).

Another session that Perfect is listed as having played on -
 

Without going into all of the discrepancies in the each of the various "official" listings for the BBC recordings on August 26 & 27 (and the listings do not even agree that there were two dates!)
All of the listings, save one, for the session(s) do however show Christine Perfect participating in the recordings:
in Peter Lewry’s “Fleetwood Mac: The Complete Recording Sessions 1967 – 1992” , she is credited for keyboards only; in the discography included in Martin Celmins’ “Peter Green – The Biography”, the credit reads keyboards and vocals; in “In Session Tonight – The Complete Radio 1 Recordings” by Ken Garner, she is said to have only contributed vocals.
The liner notes to “Peter Green’s Fleetwood Mac Live at the BBC” (Castle 2001) list her simply as a “guest” on the three tracks taken from the sessions.
It is only Christopher Hjort’s “Strange Brew: The British Blues Boom 1965-1970” in which her name is not attached to the sessions.

None of the currently availabe tracks from the session(s) including bootlegs have any piano at all, with the exception of "Hawaiian Boogie" (it is heard in the opening bars and it is almost certainly Spencer playing) -
Of the unreleased titles, the most likely suspects would be Green's "If You Be My Baby" (she played on the studio original) or more intriguingly, "Crazy For My Baby" -
We are at at deceided disadvantage in not being able to actually hear the song, (the rather generic title does not make it any easier to identify) but it is possible that is Kirwan covering a Little Walter title here -
Could it be that this was a precusor to the post Green "Can't Hold Out Much Longer", Kirwan's radical rearrangement of another Little Walter song - and that Christine took the lead vocal on this number also?
It does seem strange that within a week of joining he would have found time to collaborate with Christine, (he must have known this would be a "one-off", unless there had been talks of her also joining the band....it would help to explain why the BBC archives have her listed on the session -

Jeremy could play a mean piano but he often intentionally went in for that primitive piano style, especially on MW. For what it's worth, I think it's him playing the excellent piano part on the BBC version of Honey Hush.

Good point. Effective accenting - with admittedly a less than stellar chip or two along the way.

In fairness to JS, he often wondered where he stood once DK arrived. He became the odd man out in many ways. He also felt a three guitar front was overkill (he was right), so he looked to add where he could most effectively. His slide contros were good, but rarely rose above the din (though some provide key accents and hooks). That's why I'm glad we have Kiln House for posterity sake, with his legacy as a contributor to FM fully anchored. If not he would mostly be seen as a side player, a reluctant contributor, on the projects. His stage presence was something else, but even there he had ambivalent feelings, especially as time went on.

Christy was stage shy too. It was Welch who first took the point man to full measure, eventually as solo guitarist into the bargain. That wasn't easy. Those stage scenes sans Weston were good and tight, but it was a completely different vibe by that point. Folks often came expecting big guns and thunder, a two or even three guitar front as before (with some expecting Green himself!), and many were pretty much shell-shocked by this mellow, spacey, kicked back Welchian sound. At one concert I witnessed, Bob waved the whole band off the stage halfway into their set due to poor audience response, never to return. Of course it didn't help having a funk n boogie band before them, getting the crowd all pumped and lathered (name withheld to protect the innocent). Second rate one too.

Yeah it's kind of a mess, isn't it? The ever elusive "authorative" accounting. :laugh:

The liner notes to “Peter Green’s Fleetwood Mac Live at the BBC” (Castle 2001) list her simply as a “guest” on the three tracks taken from the sessions.
It is only Christopher Hjort’s “Strange Brew: The British Blues Boom 1965-1970” in which her name is not attached to the sessions.

And but more confusion (grrrr). It's hard to reconstruct that kind of minutiae from the often less-than-sterling notes logged at the time. It's as much art as science to do it, especially after the fact.

None of the currently availabe tracks from the session(s) including bootlegs have any piano at all, with the exception of "Hawaiian Boogie" (it is heard in the opening bars and it is almost certainly Spencer playing)

And but more of the same... :( Now keep in mind, we're mostly talking about her participation on their originally released productions, and not as much the unissued, compilation, bootleg or live material.

Of the unreleased titles, the most likely suspects would be Green's "If You Be My Baby" (she played on the studio original) or more intriguingly, "Crazy For My Baby" -
We are at at deceided disadvantage in not being able to actually hear the song, (the rather generic title does not make it any easier to identify) but it is possible that is Kirwan covering a Little Walter title here -
Could it be that this was a precusor to the post Green "Can't Hold Out Much Longer", Kirwan's radical rearrangement of another Little Walter song - and that Christine took the lead vocal on this number also?

You tell me. :D

It does seem strange that within a week of joining he would have found time to collaborate with Christine, (he must have known this would be a "one-off", unless there had been talks of her also joining the band....it would help to explain why the BBC archives have her listed on the session.

Christine Perfect was a groupie of the band back then, a prim and proper one mind you. Since she could play the blues piano so well, the guys took to her quickly. Peter in particular saw her as an effective "fit" for the band, though only as a sideman. She also had an established name with her involvement in Chicken Shack. Christy seemed to work well with Danny initially too, he even writing, producing and arranging (strings) for her showcase single When You Say (at age 19) for her first solo album -- but it wasn't all smooth sailing as time went on. Strangely enough, Danny and Jeremy really hit it off well during the Kiln House project; their relationship was never better. And I think it shows.

But, Danny's talent isn't why he was included. He was a member of one of the two incarnations that were inducted. Danny might not have written Albatross, Man Of The World, Oh Well, Rattlesnake Shake, or The Green Manalishi, but he played on those songs.

Possibly - or perhaps "as stated" - but with the cherry picking they were doing, I almost expected him to be overlooked as well. After all, he was not in the initial incarnation of the band, coming to the fold a full year after the band's formation (and with two albums already notched successfully under their belts), so he could just as easily have been left in the induction dust. He had to be included because he helped bring Fleetwood Mac to their greatest early heights, and made such profound - and lasting - changes on that entity we call the Mac. [refer to your own quote above for further evidence, and that was just the start]

Beyond that, I for the life of me cannot figure out how or why the others were not included. Too many folks on stage to jam at once? Of course not, as we came to see! And why just two incarnations, as opposed to one, or maybe three? Pretty arbitrary from my distant perch. The greatest crime was the Bob Welch slight of course; that was beyond the pale. Moral of the story: don't ask or litigate for recompense! But it was a slight to all the others too. It's just one more reason the HOF = FOS.

That's assuming they were being inducted for those two albums. I don't see it as such, nor do I see Kiln House was a part of the induction, even though the members of the band on all of those albums were inducted.

I see the induction as being more about Black Magic Woman through The Green Manalishi, which was the band's first heyday, which Danny was most certainly a part of. Still, Peter Green was the star. But there's really no way they could have just inducted Peter Green without the rest of the band, thus the induction included Jeremy and Danny (as it should).

You're overthinking it. Danny is in because he was a member of the band when they had a bunch of Peter Green hits. We, as fans know why he's great and how he impacted the band. The Hall folks don't care about that.

Pretty simple, really. The others weren't on hit albums and didn't have big hit singles. No hits=no dice. Welch-era wasn't a hit. Burnette-era wasn't a hit. Great stuff. ESSENTIAL stuff. And, they SHOULD have been included.

I never knew bands were considered on a per album basis. How is Kiln House or Future Games any less a Mac effort than any other release? Did Mr. Wonderful not pave the road for Then Play On, and that in turn for Kiln House, and that for etc <-> etc? If not, you're conveniently segregating and fencing projects, and that equates to cherry picking.

I see the induction as being more about Black Magic Woman through The Green Manalishi, which was the band's first heyday, which Danny was most certainly a part of. Still, Peter Green was the star. But there's really no way they could have just inducted Peter Green without the rest of the band, thus the induction included Jeremy and Danny (as it should).

Oh wait! I see what you're getting at now. The HOF is a Billboard Top 40 front. Ok, gotchya! More arbitrary, rose rimmed viewing and screening processes at work here? Now as I see it, Peter Green never reached heavenly Mac heights until Danny came aboard, star power notwithstanding [see that original quote of yours I cited earlier for more on this]

You're overthinking it. Danny is in because he was a member of the band when they had a bunch of Peter Green hits. We, as fans know why he's great and how he impacted the band. The Hall folks don't care about that.

It's wasn't the HOF directors' call, it was Fleetwood Mac's. The band could have engineered the induction prerequisites differently if they wanted to. No one held a gun to their collective head(s) on the matter.

Pretty simple, really. The others weren't on hit albums and didn't have big hit singles. No hits=no dice. Welch-era wasn't a hit. Burnette-era wasn't a hit. Great stuff. ESSENTIAL stuff. And, they SHOULD have been included.

Well we both agree it's great stuff, but if it was ESSENTIAL, then why didn't the "Big 5" insist they wanted the personnel behind it included? Welch was pissed to the wind because Mick and Chris were pissed at him! The HOF is NOT a Billboard Top 40 front. That is not the only prerequisite for inclusion. Now on the other hand, if it somehow has metamorphosed into this (and if it has, kindly point out where it's stated as such), then it really is FOS. In spades.

So tell me, how many Hit Singles did the Velvet Underground have? How the heck did they get in there, and before Fleetwood Mac made it?? No hits=no dice, right? Beyond hit singles, none of their album releases ever reached anywhere close to the 1970-1974 Mac releases per the charts. See what I mean by arbitrary?

Then there's the recent Dave Clark Five "bypass," unfairly bumped vote-wise in favor of a rap act! Only to be let in the following year, once the news of the behind-the-scene shenanigans broke. To their credit, at least the Sex Pistols (of all peeps) refused to attend the ceremony after they were inducted, calling the museum "a piss stain". Bloody right.

BTW I know where you stand, as we see eye to eye with basically everything sentiment-wise except who was behind the final decision-making. It boils down to this. If that stuffy board put it to Mick and the gang that less than the full cast were going to be inducted, they should have - and could have - said FORGET IT. And if they meant it, kissed their asses goodbye. But it would never have come to this.

Ps
 

PS. The Bob Welch led Heroes Are Hard To Find album did reach the Top 40 charts by the way, climbing to #34 in 1974 to be precise. That beat anything the PG Mac did stateside on the charts, and by a wide margin. To my knowledge the best the Velvet Underground ever saw was #171 on Billboard, not even a Top 100 entry. That equates to relatively poor sales, much less hit albums. But they're deemed worthy of the alter, no doubt based on "name power" or "hipness" or some other enlightened qualifier.

Proving some get the love, and some don't. :shrug:

Blood On The Floor is one of my all-time favorite Fleetwood Mac songs, and without question my favorite contribution from Jeremy to the band.

Matt

There's no formula as to who is inducted. Bands don't always have a say as to who is included. The Grateful Dead were obviously going to be inducted, and the Hall met Jerry Gracia's demands that everybody be included. With Traffic, Steve Winwood and Jim Capaldi have said that they didn't consider Dave Mason to be a full member of the band, yet he was inducted, whereas none of the others who joined later were inducted. With the Byrds, the only ones inducted were the original members, which had the hits, whereas HIGLY influential latter-day members like Gram Parsons and Clarence White were omitted.

With Fleetwood Mac, it's a bit odd, but I see how they came to that decision. Peter Green wrote a bunch of hits, Christine McVie wrote a bunch of hits, Stevie Nicks wrote a bunch of hits, Lindsey Buckingham wrote a bunch of hits, and Mick and John played on everything, and that Danny and Jeremy played on Peter's stuff means they get included, too. But, I was pissed that a guy who was on five albums and another guy who was in the band for eight years got passed over. What I find especially odd is that the Hall lists Sentimental Lady as an essential song on their Fleetwood Mac page.

Right, but now you're proving me right. Induction doesn't stem around making hits alone, and Garcia (as loyal a cat as there is in the biz) proves the hall directors will acquiesce to group demands. So why didn't the Big 5 take the high road on the issue? Could it be they didn't care? You tell me.

With Fleetwood Mac, it's a bit odd, but I see how they came to that decision. Peter Green wrote a bunch of hits, Christine McVie wrote a bunch of hits, Stevie Nicks wrote a bunch of hits, Lindsey Buckingham wrote a bunch of hits, and Mick and John played on everything, and that Danny and Jeremy played on Peter's stuff means they get included, too.

"Odd" is an understatement. That's also a rather selective and rose rimmed view on your part, as the Mac were much more than just that. I have my doubts that some of those Green hits would have gone "over the top" without Danny's key contributions to them (just my opinion). But any way you look at it, Peter really got in the groove once Kirwan appeared.

But, I was pissed that a guy who was on five albums and another guy who was in the band for eight years got passed over. What I find especially odd, in light of Bob not being inducted, is that on their page on the Hall's website, it lists Sentimental Lady as an essential song.

And that's the crime. It isn't "odd", his exclusion was premeditated - and petty to the max. That makes it worse.

To think, TWO Fleetwood Mac album titles directly reference his compositions! What a hoot.

Those alone should put anyone in that silly shrine.

It's true that Peter's playing took another leap when Danny joined the band, but I serioiusly don't think it was DIRECTLY due to Danny himself. It could've been any decent guitarist joining the band that would've inspired Peter. Jeremy either wasn't able or just downright didn't want to take on what Peter needed...a guitar foill; somebody to push him to play better...Danny just happened along. You're making it seem as if Danny was to Peter as Duane Allman was to Eric Clapton during the making of Layla and I don't see that at all.

Hmmm...You seem to know how to cherry pick, too. My two opening sentences said it all: There's no formula as to who is inducted. Bands don't always have a say as to who is included. I don't know that Fleetwood Mac had as much say as you think they had.

But, that's their legacy on popular culture. While FG and MTM had an amazing impact on me personally, I can't say that it had a major impact on popular culture. That's reality.

Peter was ready to move away from the blues and on to bigger things. Jeremy was happy being the mimick, so they needed a foil. That's where Danny came in. That it was Danny is honestly inconsequential. Yes, he was brilliant and became one of the most important members in the history of the band, the vision was still Peter's on those songs.

See, I don't know how much of that list was the band's decision and how much is the Hall's decision. I could just as easily see two or three higher-ups coming up with that list as I could the band. However, I don't know. The Hall has bent over backwards for some bands, but not others. (EDIT: i.e. was it a couple of suits that said "well, this is who we're going to induct from Fleetwood Mac, and if they don't like it, they're out" OR was it the band say "eh, f*ck those guys?" That Mick has maintained relationships with Bob Welch, Billy, and Rick, it looks to me like it was more the Hall's decision than the band's.)

In any event, I wouldn't be upset about it. The fact Madonna is in and Gram Parsons, Clarence White, Randy Bachman, Rush, Kiss, Yes, and Genesis to name but a few are not tells me all I need to know about that "institution."

Can't agree with your assessment. Sorry if you see Danny as just another "decent guitarist" (that's the understatement of the year btw lol). It wasn't a foil Green needed, it was a partner in crime. Danny provided that like few others could (Jeremy couldn't have even if he wanted to; he wasn't as gifted on the instrument, or as a songsmith). Danny didn't "just happened along" either, he was actively recruited. Pete and producer Mike Vernon were first gunning for Danny to be his own frontman with his own act, but they couldn't find musicians worthy of the 18 year old lad (to include his Boilerhouse cohorts). The more Pete saw Danny and his guitar prowess in action, the more he realized he was the missing piece in the Mac puzzle (and as history has shown, he was).

PG had his eyes wide open at the time, and took DK under his wing like no other. By the TPO sessions they resembled full fledged partners more than anything else, equals on every level. Mike Vernon has stated that in those early days, Kirwan was so into the guitar that he cried as he played. Bob Welch has stated that Green was pretty much equally matched by Kirwan on the instrument. Those insider assessments don't point to another "decent guitarist" my friend. But hell, just put your ear to it. There's more of Kirwan's guitar on Then Play On, Peter's crowning achievement, than Green's! "Ragtime Cowboy Joe" and "Young Eyes" were always complimentary pet names given to Danny by Green, and nothing else.

BTW your analogy of Allman/Clapton is apropos, but so would be Allman/Betts as we went over before. Call it the mssing element.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. These three say a lot, the first and last in particular.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...-LiveatBBC.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...nunderway1.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...es/Fmac-02.jpg

Geez Steve, we're starting to going round in circles now. I figured you were better than that. You just provided a perfect reference to contradict your latest statement here. If Garcia could do it, so could anyone else! Especially an act as big as Fleetwood Mac. How did Jerry come to carry such a big stick? Get real.

But, that's their legacy on popular culture. While FG and MTM had an amazing impact on me personally, I can't say that it had a major impact on popular culture. That's reality.

Popular culture! That's beside the point! They were inducting FLEETWOOD MAC, the band, not individual, cherry picked members of it. Or at least, THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN. Sorry you think it all boils down to how that bloody board sees things. How friggen lame.

If it was all about "popular culture," how did half the acts that grace that Hall get it there? Starting with the Velvet Underground and Sex Pistols!

Peter was ready to move away from the blues and on to bigger things. Jeremy was happy being the mimick, so they needed a foil. That's where Danny came in. That it was Danny is honestly inconsequential. Yes, he was brilliant and became one of the most important members in the history of the band, the vision was still Peter's on those songs.

Ha! Now you're rewriting history according to how the uninformed see it. I cannot correlate these two adjoining phrases of yours: "Danny is honestly inconsequential" with "Yes, he was brilliant and became one of the most important members in the history of the band"! You're losing me in the contradiction. Go read what I wrote above. Fleetwood Mac did rise above the blues, only you never get the memo on Kirwan's influence making that happen. He also accents and harmonizes Green's tunes like no other.

See, I don't know how much of that list was the band's decision and how much is the Hall's decision. I could just as easily see two or three higher-ups coming up with that list as I could the band. However, I don't know. The Hall has bent over backwards for some bands, but not others. (EDIT: i.e. was it a couple of suits that said "well, this is who we're going to induct from Fleetwood Mac, and if they don't like it, they're out" OR was it the band say "eh, f*ck those guys?"

To cut to the chase, go read what is written above >> again. Look for the => Garcia reference. I could add others to boot, but that one will suffice nicely. HINT: It WAS the band's decision! Put 1 + 1 together man, again just use the Garcia pointer.

That Mick has maintained relationships with Bob Welch, Billy, and Rick, it looks to me like it was more the Hall's decision than the band's.

Uh, really? Mick hasn't talked to Bob Welch in years, almost two decades now I if I'm correct! Where were you when the sour grapes went down? Go look up a certain lawsuit circa 1990 or so involving Welch and The Mac. There's your answer.

In any event, I wouldn't be upset about it. The fact Madonna is in and Gram Parsons, Clarence White, Randy Bachman, Rush, Kiss, Yes, and Genesis to name but a few are not tells me all I need to know about that "institution."

I don't have to be upset about it, it isn't worth the angst. I'm only pointing out a serious black spot on the band's legacy that HOF helped create. That Welch was stiffed by his former bandmates in that way, after all he contributed to FM, should not be dismissed with the wave of a hand. Christ, they would never have found SoCal - and therefore Buckingham & Nicks - if it weren't for Bob taking them there, and then resigning after he was spent. DAYUM

For the third time: There's no formula as to who is inducted. Bands don't always have a say as to who is included. Now, to make it simpler, some bands have more power than other bands because they're considered more important than other bands.

Prior to 1997, Fleetwood Mac had fallen out of the public eye. They had the reunion, and I think the timing for them was right. They could have argued a little harder, but would rather have had that moment. In other words, it wasn't perfect, but it was good enough.

The Grateful Dead, by contrast, had been a pretty consistent draw for nearly 30 years by the time they were inducted. Not only were they one of the biggest bands ever, they were their own counter-culture in a way Fleetwood Mac could never have dreamed of. Jerry Garcia and Bob Weir are the two most recorded guitarists ever.

I agree it's lame, but it's the Hall of Fame. Any body that would put Madonna in before Yes, Rush, or Genesis is, by definition, lame.

Because, those bands have had a lasting impact on popular culture. Punk rock and art rock are as alive today as ever, and most of those bands cite VU or the Pistols as influences. Hell, I was listening to both bands earlier today.

No. I'm actually rock solid, here. One is Danny's impact on Peter Green, the other is more a reference to what he did for the band in the wake of Peter's departure. I agree with ChiliD. Peter needed a foil, and Danny happened to fit that bill. Be sure, Danny's inclusion had more to do with the fact he played in Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac than it did for Kiln House. Otherwise, Welch would have been included, too.

I know too well his importance to the band. But, it's not the Important to the History of Fleetwood Mac Hall of Fame, it's the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. They don't care about the history of Fleetwood Mac, they care about Fleetwood Mac's impact on rock music/popular culture. The two variants of Fleetwood Mac that had that impact were Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, of which Danny was a part, and the Rumours band.

I'm still not conviced.

Ummm, you're totally wrong. The lawsuit was settled, Bob and Mick are talking, Bob was at the band's 2003 Nashville show, and Mick recently played or agreed to play a benefit for Bob's wife. Also, Billy was involved in the Mick Fleetwood Band about two years ago, and that morphed into the Mick Fleetwood Blues Band, which is basically lead by Rick Vito. Yeah, them grapes are still sour.


Read Bob's Second Q&A session

This was posted on the Sheryl Crow is joining Fleetwood Mac!!! thread over on the Rumours forum on 04-23-2008 at 08:08 PM

Yeah it's all hocus pocus, a real rabbit-out-of-the-hat trick. Gotchya.

And of course, Grateful Dead dwarf Fleetwood Mac in raw "power," ROTFL! Have you ever compared their record sales, let alone impact on "pop culture"? Give me a break.

Prior to 1997, Fleetwood Mac had fallen out of the public eye. They had the reunion, and I think the timing for them was right. They could have argued a little harder, but would rather have had that moment. In other words, it wasn't perfect, but it was good enough.

That's bull. They didn't "argue" or push at all. They kept the limelight all for themselves. But keep dreaming if that's your preference.

The Grateful Dead, by contrast, had been a pretty consistent draw for nearly 30 years by the time they were inducted. Not only were they one of the biggest bands ever, they were their own counter-culture in a way Fleetwood Mac could never have dreamed of. Jerry Garcia and Bob Weir are the two most recorded guitarists ever.

More exaggerations. The Dead have not outdrawn FM since the Buckingham-Nicks era. There have been attendance lulls for both bands over the years, often due to changing or MIA personnel. Counter-culture doesn't equate to "popular culture", nor record sales. The Dead are a big act, but to argue they leave the Mac bested by any type of sales or attendance measuring sticks is like whistling in the dark. Want to compare official sales charts? :D

snoot Quote:
Popular culture! That's beside the point! They were inducting FLEETWOOD MAC, the band, not individual, cherry picked members of it. Or at least, THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN. Sorry you think it all boils down to how that bloody board sees things. How friggen lame.

I agree it's lame, but it's the Hall of Fame. Any body that would put Madonna in before Yes, Rush, or Genesis is, by definition, lame.

We agree here, big time. There's hope yet! :blob2:

snoot Quote:
If it was all about "popular culture," how did half the acts that grace that Hall get it there? Starting with the Velvet Underground and Sex Pistols!

Because, those bands have had a lasting impact on popular culture. Punk rock and art rock are as alive today as ever, and most of those bands cite VU or the Pistols as influences. Hell, I was listening to both bands earlier today.

Before you were arguing no hits=no dice. So how many ways should we dice this thing up? While neither of us can say for certain what makes up the so called criteria, or more importantly what goes on behind the scenes, one thing is for certain: there are a HELLUVA lot of musicians in there that couldn't measure up to Welch's navel, let alone musical heights and accomplishments. You just named two imo.

snoot Quote:
Ha! Now you're rewriting history according to how the uninformed see it. I cannot correlate these two adjoining phrases of yours: "Danny is honestly inconsequential" with "Yes, he was brilliant and became one of the most important members in the history of the band"! You're losing me in the contradiction.

No. I'm actually rock solid, here. One is Danny's impact on Peter Green, the other is more a reference to what he did for the band in the wake of Peter's departure. I agree with ChiliD. Peter needed a foil, and Danny happened to fit that bill. Be sure, Danny's inclusion had more to do with the fact he played in Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac than it did for Kiln House. Otherwise, Welch would have been included, too.

"Peter needed a foil, and Danny happened to fit that bill." => Uh, ok. Dang, and so simple too.

"Otherwise, Welch would have been included, too. "

How many times do I have to state this! Welch was stiffed because Chris and Mick were miffed. Period.

Be sure, Danny's inclusion had more to do with the fact he played in Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac than it did for Kiln House.

Danny's inclusion had everything to do with his impact on the Mac. If it was "justified" (and sanctified in your eyes) by his participation with PGFM, so be it.

I know too well his importance to the band. But, it's not the Important to the History of Fleetwood Mac Hall of Fame, it's the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. They don't care about the history of Fleetwood Mac, they care about Fleetwood Mac's impact on rock music/popular culture. The two variants of Fleetwood Mac that had that impact were Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, of which Danny was a part, and the Rumours band.

Dumb argument, but go on and buy into it. You'll be making the Big 5 happy. When someone - anyone - can cherry pick Bob Welch out of the FM equation, the game is up. Checkmate. :rolleyes:

snoot Quote:
To cut to the chase, go read what is written above >> again. Look for the => Garcia reference. I could add others to boot, but that one will suffice nicely. HINT: It WAS the band's decision! Put 1 + 1 together man, again just use the Garcia pointer.

I'm still not conviced.

You can lead a horse to water but ... ah, forget it.

snoot Quote:
Uh, really? Mick hasn't talked to Bob Welch in years, almost two decades now I if I'm correct! Where were you when the sour grapes went down? Go look up a certain lawsuit circa 1990 or so involving Welch and The Mac. There's your answer.

Ummm, you're totally wrong. The lawsuit was settled, Bob and Mick are talking, Bob was at the band's 2003 Nashville show, and Mick recently played or agreed to play a benefit for Bob's wife. Also, Billy was involved in the Mick Fleetwood Band about two years ago, and that morphed into the Mick Fleetwood Blues Band, which is basically lead by Rick Vito. Yeah, them grapes are still sour.

Duh of course I knew the lawsuit was settled, after mucho kicking and screaming! That was hardly Bob's fault!

Ok I didn't realize there was any kind of thawing of the ice at any time. And I don't know if the ill feelings are fully healed, or if the communication lines are still working, as we speak. My impression is that they are not. But more importantly, what you've presented is all after the fact, and has nothing to do with what went down at HOF in '98. Bob was passed over on purpose, by Mick & Chris in particular (and possibly John, though I wonder if he would have preferred it that way if left to his own devices), not the HOF board. Keep repeating your mantra so you keep yourself convinced. "La La La" works too.

But since you want to pull out basically irrelevant quotes to support your misinformed position and sidetrack what I'm trying to tell you, try this (and note, all from ONE SINGLE Q&A session, but I could pull plenty more! But alas, what would be the point? You'll believe what you want to!). :mad:

[See next post for quotes]