What early Pre-Rumours era songs do you consider to be "hits"?
 

So on the Rumours forum I'm running a contest to find out the favorite non-hit Fleetwood Mac. Ledgies over there have varying opinion of what can be defined as a "hit". Do you go by the songs that were released as singles and charted well, how well and which charts, what if the song is recently discovered and now is well-liked?

So post the songs you feel shouldn't be eligible in the favorite non-hit song contest. :cool:

Thanks! :wavey:

A hit single is generally defined as having cracked the top 40 of the singles chart.

In the UK that would be 'The Official Charts Company' as reported on BBC Radio - it's pretty simple for stuff prior to digital downloads. A Single is defined as a recording released to the public with no more than four tracks and the total running time being under 20 minutes (from memory...it might be very slightly different).

For example obviously Albatross was a hit. But a track that was released as a single and didn't crack the top 40 wasn't.

You might like to tighten the definition as to which country you are in...for the USA it would be the main Billboard chart, for example, but a hit is still usually defined as "top 40"

The Guinness Book of Hit Singles is a good starting point.

some great info here! :nod:

So here's what I'm thinking should be considered early Pre-Rumours era hits...

Shake Your Moneymaker
Black Magic Woman
Need You Love So Bad
Albatross
Man of the World
Oh Well
The Green Manalishi

Also I'm not sure about the Christine/Welch era since it seems that none of their songs charted. :distress:

Non-hits ...
 

'Considered to be hits'? These all charted in England, 4 of them at #1.:confused:

"Shake Your Moneymaker" was a hit in Norway. It was released as a 1968 single, which I got hold of recently.

Had no idea that there were four number 1's.

Too bad this band couldn't continue.

these are unbelievable songs... all written in such short period of time!

One day I'm going to take the time to make
a seriously good compilation from this time
period.

I completely agree! Do you know if Mick Fleetwood, and John McVie were busted in New Orleans 1/70, along with the Grateful Dead that there's no Buckingham/Nicks verson of FM??? Fleetwood, and McVie would've been deported from the United States, forever!

Back to your "too bad" point, Peter Green's timing was off by six months. If Green had waited at least to the end of 1970 to leave FM, America would've heard the Boston Tea Party tapes as a 2 LP live album. It would've changed the band in America. Because Green left late 5/70, those tapes didn't see the light of day until Lindsay Buckingham left FM in 1985.

You have to understand, FM used to be a Cream, LZ, Who, Faces, Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix band under Peter Green. When FM went "California". That unreleased Peter Green material would if released during the mid/late 1970's completely undermine the "pop" version of Fleetwood Mac. Mick Fleetwood is a good Den mother.

This is very true. The band were on the verge of becoming a viable force on the heavy rock scene in the US. But even by the beginning of 1970, Green was pretty much not interested in anymore. This didn't stop him from continuing to make great music right up til the end of his tenure with FM--and often beyond. Once Green left, the band struggled for a new image that was neither as heavy as acts like Deep Purple nor as commercially viable as the early Doobie Brothers. They were respected musicians without a hook image.

"Future Games" with Welch was an attempt at "UK prog rock" at the time. I've always loved the title song. Yet Danny Kirwan was still writing beautiful songs through "Bare Trees". His post FM solo work is not to be overlooked.

Without Peter Green, Kirwan was like a rudderless ship in a large stormy ocean. Kirwan had the talent, but lost the fire. Then came the ugly conclusion.

To emphasize how important those Boston Tea Party tapes would've been for FM, they would've pre-dated the Allmans' "Live at the Fillmore East" by at least a year! Not only that, FM would've been in direct competition with The Who's "Live at Leeds", and The Rolling Stones "Get Your Ya Ya's Out" live albums. Green, and Kirwan were playing harmonizing guitar leads live just as Allman, and Betts.

Yet if America heard the BTP album first....? That's a huge game changer for Fleetwood Mac.

Agreed on both accounts. The title tune of Future Games sounds like songs from Pink Floyd's Meddle. I've always loved most of the entire album, too. Danny's work was gorgeous but he needed a tougher counterpoint to really spark. Oddly, the only truly weak song and vocal performance on FG is Christine's Morning Rain, which sounds way better in the earlier version they were floating to radio stations before the album's release. It's bizarre how badly her vocals are here when they are so wonderful on Show Me a Smile.

I always thought "Show Me a Smile" was the first seed that started the road to the American west coast. I don't think that song would've been out of place on the 1975 self-titled album.

By what you typed, I think you agree that without Peter Green as some older brother/mentor, Kirwan's songs' were influenced by the band's direction.

Kirwan had to abandon a lot of his great material after Green left. I think this had a tremendous negative effect on his psyche.

That's true--including a lot of great tunes like "Like it This Way," etc. FM said they were done with blues when Welch joined (he told this to Samuel Graham in 1977). But I wonder why they didn't try to hold on just a little more to some of their past. A number of tunes from the Christine Perfect album would've sounded dynamite in a FM context, for example. The live-in-studio version of Crazy Bout You Baby is a perfect example.

It appears Kirwan was a leading force in the band's musical direction from 1970-72. But without Green's tough, heavier approach to songwriting, Kriwan's folksier songs, though excellent, seem paler than they ought alongside Welch's and McVie's. Child of Mine is a notable exception. Large portions of that tune are amazing. And Dust is concise an effective in a way Sands of Time is not. I wish he had stayed in the band.

I wish it were possible for him to have stayed.

With apologies to Jeremy Spencer in advance....
 

I think the perfect FM scenario would've been if Jeremy Spencer left as he did 2/71 while Peter Green was still in the band. FM chose Christine McVie to replace Spencer on the fly. Not to mention the Boston Tea Party album is released worldwide.

Since Christine had the blues chops with Chicken Shack, and playing with FM for "Mr. Wonderful" , it would've worked! That band would've been a monster.

If parallel universe's exist, this would be one outcome of Fleetwood Mac. :lol:

Apology accepted...
 

...I'm inclined to agree.

I thought Welch replaced Spencer. Christine toured with Jeremy and the remaining FM members for an entire tour. She was brought in to "fill out the sound" in the absence of a third guitarist.

Totally agree about the exciting possibility of Christine playing with Green, Kirwan, etc...I've always loved her piano parts on the Green songs for Mr. Wonderful. Top notch.

Maybe, but Mr. Wonderful did not include Danny, and had a big reliance on Jeremy. So that line-up actually did very well.

I'm writing if Peter Green stayed in FM, and had not left 5/70. There would be no need for a replacement for any member until 2/71. There would also be no "Kiln House", but I'm sure Danny's songs from that album would've been released later with Peter Green's influence.

It's one thing for Green to replace Spencer to play "Kiln House" songs on tour as it happened, vs. Christine joining the band to play Peter Green/Danny Kirwan songs.

Jeremy Spencer's version of "Shake Your Moneymaker", is balls on blues! It proved that the Brits could do it better than John Mayall, and he was the godfather after Alexis Korner. It also made the Paul Butterfield version sound "white suburban blues, American style". Spencer's slide ability was beyond reproach for all white guitarists at the time (pre Duane Allman), yet Spencer fell into an Ellmore James rut. "Mr. Wonderful" is that example.

John Mayall is Brit as well :cool:

I don't think Jeremy would have quit when he did , if the above Peter Green scenario had happened .Peter would have still been shouldering the "Front Man" responsibilities and the songwriting load -expectation of top ten hits-(probably uncomfortably given his state of mind and phillosophy ) but if still committed to the band, would have done it and taken the pressure of Jeremy and Danny

Message from Walter Bishop
 

In a parallell universe Jeremy would have realized that Peter loved him playing piano or rhythm guitar ian if he embraced that the question would never had come up. Johnny Almond or dick hextall smith or christine perfect or Steve gregorywere available if needed. Danny would not have been necessary for duty to be second guitar for Peter just as peter was second guitar for Jeremy.
People are human and choices are made in a changing universe. Peter was most likely on the way out when he was on the way in. And of course in a perfect world there would have been no sixties to change the course of everyones lives.

A Fringe Thought, no doubt

Quite right Doodyhead This Jeremy not playing second guitar for Peter's songs situation has always puzzled me It's not like Jeremy could only play on a guitar set to an open tuning -surely !- or even that he only had one guitar available and didn't want to constantly change the tuning ,which is a pain I must admit !. It was inevitable that a third guitarist would be required to provide the chordal harmony to Peter's lead (This was ,as it turned out, not a bad thing ,as this three guitar line up produced three of the four greatest concerts I've ever seen !¬)

Jeremy, if you're out there ,you were very open in the Peter Green Documentery when you were talking candidly about not having anything to offer when Then Play On was being made ,perhaps you could be equally candid here , and cast some light on this backing guitar situation Peter obviously greatly admired your playing ,and was ,I have always felt ,very fond of you as a person which is why he allowed youto slope offstage ,leaving them as a trio to play Peter's numbers -something I suspect he would not have tollerated from anyone else .! Was it just lack of self confidence in your straight (non open tuning¬) guitar playing ? I can't believe that !

And while I'm at it - I too love Christine's piano playing on the Mr Wonderful tracks (which I also think have some of Peter's best phrasing ever ) but why weren't you playing piano , did they suggest it to you but you declined ?

My analogy was that Mayall did it better than Alexis Korner. FM did it better than Mayall. I was writing that the British blues movement went beyond Mayall.

The cause, and effect! So what you, and vinnie are writing is that if Peter Green stayed, Jeremy Spencer would have no need to leave because Peter Green was the natural leader of the band. Yet if you saw the 2007 BBC Peter Green documentary, Jeremy felt like he had nothing else to offer after "Then Play On". If you read Jeremy Spencer's reply to my "dream" scenario, he didn't offer a different opinion.

What bothers me most, is that every known recording post Munich 3/70, Peter Green plays the best guitar of his career. Stockholm's 4/1/70 version of "I've Got a Good Mind to Give Up Living" crushes the famous New Orleans version from 1/70. Carlos Santana couldn't touch Peter Green's version of "Black Magic Woman" from the Roundhouse Chalk Farm, 4/24/70.

So how does "Syd Barrett #2" according to den mother Mick Fleetwood play his best guitar after "he took a trip, and never came back" in Munich 3/70? Not to mention lumping Danny Kirwan into the incident. While Peter Green did become sick a couple years later, blaming him for leaving 5/70 was not because he was mentally ill.

While Mick Fleetwood has done a lot for former FM members, his spin of the "myth" of FM is really disingenuous.

I think Peter was always the rather uneasy natural leader I don't think he particularly wanted to be ,but he did it and did it superbly .
I thought Jeremy said he had nothinhg to offer song wise for the album , and I assumed (I mean what I concluded 40 years ago when I was reading that he wasnt involved via the music press ) wast hat he was not confident in composing original material which I absolutely sympathise with .(sticking another three ELmore James tracks on Then Play on would have been a mistake )But he had plenty to offer post TPO -the live performances some of the finest ever as demonstrated in you quite rightly beloved Boston Tea Party recordings for example As Doody head so rightly said in one of his posts- you got three great bands for the price of one when they played live !

I absolutely agree with you about Peter's finest playing post Munich(though the sparse and beautifully phrased playing of the Mr.Wonderful era is up there with it in my opinion)¬ whatever happened there did not affect his playing ,dare I say that I go the impression from his interveiws in the doc, that he felt it helped , or he felt he did wonderful playing whilst there (not Jeremy's opinion at all if I recall correctly )¬but this does not mean that he wasnt in torment in his personal life or his spirituality To be fair to Mick, he says that they were unaware of what was going on ie the lyrics to Manalishi -they thought they were just song lyrics ,and we thought they were just song lyrics( of a great song )and there was no indication on stage- his inter song chat- that anything was amiss .

Jeremy himself said that he felt Danny was badly affected by Munich (till I saw this doc I had no idea Danny was even there for 40 years the story was that Peter was there all by himself virtually kidnapped !) So it's not just Mick's spin

I just watched the brand new "Classic Albums" documentary on Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here". "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" was a tribute to the original guitarist in PF. Syd Barrett's trigger from reality happened over a long weekend in late 1967. When he came back, you could see it in his eyes, he had "shut down". After that "incident" Syd Barrett would not play his guitar on stage for periods of time. He would just stand there staring into space while the rest of the band was playing. Does this even remotely describe Peter Green after his "incident"??? Roky Erickson, and Skip Spence are closer to Syd Barrett, than Peter Green.

Of all the "acid casualties", Peter Green seemed to be doing well 5/70. As I said Mick Fleetwood in his head has justified Peter Green leaving FM over drugs, vs. boredom. Logic says, why did FM desperately ask Peter Green back to fill in for Spencer, when he went on his own path? I don't think Pink Floyd would've asked Syd Barrett to fill in for David Gilmour, because David found a "new beginning" in Los Angeles. Do I need to use a sledgehammer to make my point!?!? :blob2:

You really have made your (the) point, slipkid. There is a tendency in us humans to find the easy explanations to very complex things and events that we don't understand or don't want to take responsibillity for (like noticing that your friend is in trouble). I think Mich Reynolds is quoted in the Celmins Biography on Peter Green saying, that the development of his mental problems was a slow development. I happened over some time. Taking acid didn't help the latent condition, but it was taking acid, being overworked and being a sensitive soul exposed to too much too soon over some time that made him ill.
The Hamburg myth is the easy explanation.

IMHO

Ms Moose

You said it, Ms Moose...
 

...or rather, Mich said it. It happened over time, and the 'held captive in Munich and spiked/drugged' is a myth. Peter was there of his own accord and volition, enjoyed himself and liked the people involved. Rainer Langhans and and Uschi Obermeyer were not so interested in FM or even PG, as they were in getting in contact with the Rolling Stones in order to have a Munich Woodstock/Altamont festival.

Jeremy are you saying that when John McVie mentions
how mad he was at the people responsible for Peter's spiked/
drugged ordeal and would like to do something about it,
that he's wrong about the situation?

THANK YOU! Jeremy Spencer has finally opened Mick Fleetwoods' "Pandora's Box".

You were quoted while filmed for the 2007 BBC PG doc, that you heard sounds from the basement in Munich that sounded "evil". Was it just a guitarist with a Wah pedal among Germans? I'd feel the same way.

I watched a movie based on Uschi Obermaier's life three years ago with German subtitles. The see you next Tuesday person never mentioned Peter Green. If you are a fan of Keith Richards, and the Stones...go to town!

A matter of perspective...
 

John knows and respects mine on the situation.

I find it interesting that Jeremy believes that Peters personality changed over a period of time and Mick/John seem to believe that it was almost right away...

His personality changing is one thing but I believe his playing was spot on right thru End Of The Game.

Since none of us fans were there all we can do is guess.

As Jeremy titles his reply is truly is "A matter of perspective"

While I obviously have no way of knowing what that music may have sounded like, considering that Uschi Obermaier is considered an early member of the German band Amon Düül, it would not be a stretch to imagine that the members of the High-Fish commune might have tried to emulate their music. Check Youtube clips of their early recordings and you could see where Peter Green in 1970 may well have been drawn to their style.

Here's an example of the original Amon Düül, before they split into "Amon Düül I" and "Amon Düül II":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApGMTYTKIKA

And here's some early Amon Düül II (generally more professional and structured music than the original Amon Düül):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJThEDJ5-Y8

Even as well-traveled as the band was by early 1970, the people and music at the High-Fish commune might well have been something new to them - perhaps exciting to Peter Green but somewhat strange and a bit frightening to the other band members.

Nothing new to the rest of us!
 

We heard trance-inducing stuff like that played by amateurs all over the USA at that time, especially LA and SF, only done better. That was why the whole affair was so puzzling. But it's amazing what you can think is so great when recording on acid and deplore afterwards when you're straight. BTDT and I rest my case.

Thanks for the response, Jeremy - great to hear the input of someone who was actually there!

Jeremy AND Mich...
 

... who became very close to him and tried to help him.

Peter Green jammed with the Allman Brothers at the New Orleans Warehouse early 11/70. The story goes that a curious man dressed in a floral shirt was dancing side-stage to the opening act; Procol Harum. Later that evening, the Allman Brothers played their first act, with an intermission. The second act began at midnight, and the "curious man dressed in a floral shirt" had a guitar on his shoulder. He joined the Allmans' to play "Mountain Jam" for the next three hours. By 3AM, Duane Allman called the show because Jaimoe, and Butch Trucks were wiped! That mystery guitar player was Peter Green.