The Death Of Fleetwood Mac...Time
First off I had this response all written out and then through some
computer magic, I must have hit the wrong button and lost the whole thing. So thank your lucky stars. And now an edited version: Bretonbaquet, Of course some of my comments were meant to "antagonise". Much like your "Steve still waiting tables" statemeant. I used the word imposters to describe the members of the band that were there without Peter, Lindsey and Stevie. As I've already listed in the other locked thread the real stars were: Peter, Mick, John, Christine, Lindsey and Stevie . And that's it. TrueFaith77, How do I seperate Danny and Jeremy because they were there when Peter left? That kind of answers itself. Peter was the heartbeat of the band. Without him they just started drifting into a bland band. And the reason I didn't continue the story about the band during the Lindsey, Stevie and Christine years is because everyone already knows about the amazing success that version had. Without finding Buckingham Nicks the band would have been forgotten. I love Stevie and Christine too (Stevie's the reason I became a Mac fan), but without Lindsey they became a boring bland band again. So even though I think Danny, Jeremy, Bob, Billy, Rick and Bekka are talented, their versions of Fleetwood Mac Light were hurtful to the band's image. Does anyone on this board really think that Behind The Mask and Time didn't hurt the image of the band. The band's brand was going down, down, down. It would have been really sad if that's the way the Mac's story would have ended. Without The Dance and even the mediocre Say You Will to give them real credibility, or a respectable legacy - those other versions would have been the death of Fleetwood Mac. |
I appreciate your opinion iamnotafraid, but what exactly do you feel was the death of Fleetwood Mac - the Behind the Mask and Time albums themselves, or the new members. What in your opinion makes the albums so bad or individual new members so bad? Should the band had called it quits when Peter or even Lindsey left?
I notice you state your opinions openly, but don't seem to provide evidence to support your opinions. If you got fired, laid off from your job, would you be going around giving your former boss and former company the highest praise? |
Not going to comment on the whole Time/Behind The Mask controversy, because people know my opinions. But how can you class Say You Will as a mediocre album? It was a fresh and intriguining responce to the years past and commentary on the world as it stood then and today. Where it may not have been another Rumours, it was still successful in its own right. It was the most commercially successful, from a chart point of view, album in the US since Mirage and it went Gold in the US and United Kingdom. They obviously did something right if so many people bought back into the "franchise.
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Thanks for your responses.
I shall answer after the Miami Dolphins game tonight. Which starts in just a few minutes... |
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The fatal blow to the band was Rumours...and the proof of that was The Dance. Because they couldn't remove themselves from the Rumours curse in the meantime, they took a giant leap backwards and became for all eternity, an oldies retro band. Forget any future creativity, they were stuck forever in the Rumours quicksand. |
Your logic still doesn't hold on the Jeremy/Danny not being the true Fleetwood Mac... because... your whole point is that a similar blanding occurred when Rick and Billy joined... which means according to that same logic... Christine was part of the post-Peter blanding and Stevie and Christine were (like Jeremy/Danny) around for the blanding after Lindsey left. Which means, you ACTUALLY only think that Fleetwood Mac is Fleetwood Mac if Peter and Lindsey are there: Mick, John, Christine, Stevie are all incidental according to your logic.
ETA: Now I understand. Peter Green is the heartbeat (he worked with Jeremy and Danny separately for example). AND Lindsey-Stevie-Christine are, as a unit, the heartbeat. Your internal logic is sound. However, to Chili's point--and to your particular standards--do you think the band's blanding began before Behind the Mask, with Mirage, in which the Rumours juggernaut proved to great for them to successfully negotiate? My pov is conflicted: I admire and enjoy all eras of Fleetwood Mac and I see how that history participated in the three Off-White albums of the late 70s, which I regard as a pinnacle in ALL OF MUSIC. But if THAT brand were smudged, it began with Mirage, no? Compromised though it may be (as we know as insiders rather than as fresh listeners, I contend), I consider Say You Will to be the greatest American album of the 00s. To put it in perspective, Mirage and Tango (both of which I love) wouldn't make my Top 50 of the 80s (I don't even know if they'd make the top 10 for their respective years!). I have a friend who believes in the "brand" concept as well. Look at something like Roxy Music where every album must be perfection and for which Bryan daringly retired the name at its greatest financial and international success. For him, the Mac should have ended with Tusk. And he argues that 90s Mac didn't "look" right--and in part he intuits the compromise at the heart of them, in which certain artists may have been forced into the Rumours mold. I happen to think this means he is missing some wonderful moments and wonderful records (even Behind the Mask is a fascinating whole; I feel the cover captures the album's quality of being steeped in American folk/pop lore--of which the Rumours Mac were an undeniable part). And, THUS, I feel that therefore the definition of the Mac is, in fact, held in the much-hated Time album in which Mick reveals that the Mac is his way of honoring Peter Green. And, THAT is as good a definition of the "real" Fleetwood Mac as I need. Chili and I won't agree on the worth of revisiting Rumours on The Dance or on the more-than-a-fluke specialness of that phenomenon. However, I think the point is to call something the "real" fleetwood mac or not kinda misses the larger issue of how and where and why and to what point Fleetwood Mac became what it became at different junctures. Just some thoughts. |
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what I write about this band we all love and loathe. My green eyed friend I do believe "Say You Will" was a mediocre album. Mostly because of Stevie. Her only contribution to that album was Goodbye Baby (a song NOT about her abortions, as some think). I imagine the outtakes of Destiny Rules goes something like this... Stevie - Lindsey I can't sing that high, lower key please... Lindsey - I can't sing that high either, but just how low can we go? Stevie - Can you still work your magic with the VSO? Lindsey - What if I just whisper my lyrics? They sound for the most part like they need their batteries replaced or something. I do like a few of Lindsey's songs from Say You Will. Even the much hated "Come". That song rocked in concert. It's just sad to me that they couldn't put out a better album. I think Lindsey and Stevie had their chance to shine and they blew it. Less Stevie and a few Christine songs would or could have made this album better. This album could have been a decent solo album for Lindsey. But $$$ talks. ChiliD and MacShadows, I'll reply to you guys later. I know it's killing you to know what I think. |
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see my revision |
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Time was the best thing to ever happen to FM. God forbid that lineup had ever been given the chance to shine, though. I'm no Dave Mason fan, but B & B were great additions. But the jello mold had been set, and as long as Mick could talk S&L into returning, Mick could return to making his mortgage payments.:mad: |
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I won't deny that Rumours was the worst thing to happen to the band. But I have differing reasons why I believe that to be the case. Mainly, it was all downhill from Rumours. The album was so good it just couldn't be matched ever again. On top of that it was so successful it's sales could never be matched. Not to mention the fact that one album alone has dominated the band ever since, and all of us hardcore fans are SICK of it. And I truly am sick of it... whenever I hear Don't Stop or Go You Own Way these days my stomach turns :laugh:. But it's not all gloom and doom, though. Via Rumours countless fans have been exposed to iterations of Fleetwood Mac they likely never would have heard. I know I wouldn't have even listened to the '70-75 era albums without having been roped in by Rumours first... much less been able to fall in love with that period. There is no doubt Buckingham Nicks kept the band alive for decades too... albeit at the cost of the band's soul atrophying. While I'm responding to this thread, I just have to attack the notion that's upheld by a vocal minority that the Time era of Fleetwood Mac was more genuine than the Rumours one. To me, Lindsey's (and subsequently, Stevie's) being hired into the band was an organic thing. The band needed a new guitarist because Bob Welch was on his way out, so they hired Lindsey. After Stevie left, Mick knew he needed another pretty blond girl to get the band some attention and get some butts in the seats... hence his hiring of Bekka. To me, the reasons why Bekka was hired were far less pure than why Lindsey (and as a freebie, Stevie) were hired. But that's just my opinion. And while I'm just laying it all out there, let's not forget Mick, Chris, John, and Lindsey have all dismissed the Time era... and have all referred to the Rumours incarnation of the band as the lineup of Fleetwood Mac. And I agree... without Chris these days, it's no longer "THE" lineup, IMO... and the magic of Fleetwood Mac has evaporated. Rant over... feel free to feed on me like rabid piranhas! :laugh: http://seedorama.com/wp-content/uplo...0/piranha3.png |
:laugh: On my god, you little troll.
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I don't want to address the less lucid points that have been made in this thread, but I think a lot of fans overlook the fact that Fleetwood Mac haven't been musically relevant for a very long time. In fact, the last time they were anything approaching dynamic, and produced music that didn't originate from the 70s and 80s, was for Time.
Up to 1976, Fleetwood Mac always tried new things, new members, new styles - they were willing to take risks, like following Bob's idea of moving to the US. All of the members had contributed to this organic development of the band. Most had, at some time or another, been the individual thread that the band's existence hung on - that's certainly true of Peter obviously, but also Jeremy, Danny and Bob Welch. After Rumours, the band's creativity disappeared. Whatever anyone thinks of Stevie and Christine, neither of them were ever musically progressive, not in the slightest. Lindsey was, and is, of course - but his creativity was hamstrung by being in Fleetwood Mac. Therein lies the popularity - people that are not musically adventurous like a band that isn't musically adventurous - it appeals to most people. For Behind the Mask, Lindsey was gone, and replaced by a couple of guys who were talented and musically very capable, but not terribly quirky or interesting. Therefore that album is the most tedious of all the band's output (imo) - at least Time was interesting. Then they went back and lived in the 70s for the next 15 years. They basically felt, and were made to feel by the media and the fans, that they weren't allowed to experiment or take risks any more, and the Rumours stuff was all they were ever required to do. And (here's where I get crucified) I think the rabid Stevie fanatics were at the very crux of that. Anything that isn't Stevie doing the same old stuff, just isn't Fleetwood Mac to them. So Mac ceased to be a proper band, and these words "brand" and "franchise" rear their ugly heads. Those words have no place in music - music isn't about that s**t. So a lot of people are happy with that, including at least one person on this thread - fine. A lot of people like Big Macs too - doesn't make them good food. |
Fleetwood Mac late 1960's = Huge
Fleetwood Mac late 1970's = Epic Fleetwood Mac Mid 1990's = ? Thats my whole theory. To be honest, I don't like what FM had become. You can't just take prominent singers and replace with someone else. Now, that does not necessarily mean that Bekka and friends aren't good (I have never listened to time). |
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In reading the replies here, it seems there are some who like Behind the Mask and hate Time, while others hate Behind the Mask and like Time. :confused: I guess I like them both equally, but with FM its hard to "hate" and/or "like" an album w/contributions from multiple writers/vocalists.
Just for fun, what do you guys think Fleetwood Mac should have done in '87 when Lindsey left abruptly? I believe FM were obligated to tour - should they had canceled to tour and disbanded? :shrug: |
After reading the posts here, I wanted to jump into the pool. I have a few things to bring up but I don't have time so let me just say briefly that, yeah, I'm really tired of Rumours too even through it will always hold a special place in my heart. I think Tusk is the great FWM album. I actually like BTM a great deal. I wish Rick and Billy had been allowed to do a couple more albums.
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I wish the band (SLCMJ) had held it together after Rumours to take advantage of their success to make great music together for the rest of their lives.
But they didn't. Since that didn't happen, I wish that the band (even if just SLMJ) had held it together after The Dance to make great music together for the rest of their lives. But they didn't. Since that didn't happen either, I wish that Mick (and John) had been able to be more liberated (even from within themselves) in doing Fleetwood Mac work without S&L, while always welcoming them back into the fold should they so choose. But they weren't. |
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Matt |
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I do believe they should have carried on. However, I think they should have carried on with someone who was a marquee name in his/her own right. Someone who was more of a singer/songwriter than an instrumentalist (and not necessarily a guitarist per se). Someone who could step up to the plate in terms of production and arrangement. Someone who could take Fleetwood Mac in another musical direction. Someone who can re-interpret Lindsey's songs in concert without sounding like karaoke. Trevor Rabin of Yes comes to mind. Tommy Shaw of Styx, perhaps? Billy Squier? In any case, after the Shake the Cage tour they should have probably bid Billy and Rick adieu and then searched in earnest for a permanent replacement for Lindsey. |
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{sarcasm} Hell, maybe they should've gotten Ritchie Blackmore & Candice Night to replace BOTH Lindsey & Stevie?? {/sarcasm} Just remember people, Behind The Mask went to # f-ing 1 in the UK charts and #18 in the US, so there were quite a few people who really didn't mind, or care, that Lindsey was gone. |
To me from a business standpoint....they should have done one of two things
Got someone like Eric Clapton, Joe Walsh, Bonnie Raitt, Santana or brought back Bob Welch (someone who had their own thing) -OR- They could have just incorporated Waddy Wachtel and joined the Stevie Nicks solo show into Fleetwood Mac. If she did her solo songs in that lineup, along with Christine's contributions, you wouldn't have needed another singer/writer. I do think having to two guitarists post '87 was a mistake. Both incredibly talented guitarists, but you needed a writer/producer to replace Lindsey not just a guitar player. |
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Or just open a sugar factory and be done with it :laugh: |
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No, it's not always a member of the band that makes a good producer; it just kind of happened that Lindsey worked (for the most part..but, sometimes that can be a detriment, too...Tusk?? Say You Will??)...they didn't have a member of the band as a producer prior to Rumours...and Ken Caillat & Richard Dashut shared producer credits with Lindsey after that. |
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As far as FM members, I'm more of a Christine / Stevie fan. Judging by the results of the battle of the songs so far, most Ledgies seem to agree. Lindsey's songs have yet to win an album battle. Christine and Stevie were the hit makers of the group, actually might be more Christine than Stevie. "Group" meaning Rumours era... Somebody wanna post the singles from the Rumours era and chart listings? :shrug: |
Okay according to wikipedia, Christine had 9 Top 40 hits, Stevie had 5, and Lindsey had 3. Thats from the US charts - Rumours Era.
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What is Fleetwood Mac:
a) A popular 1960's british blues band, led by Peter Green b) A new band headed by Christine Mcvie, Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks. Peter, Christine, Lindsey and Stevie all have on thing in common - they are unique. Thats what made the Mac the Mac. You cannot just take them away - and call it the same. |
I guess I just fail to see how the Time chapter qualifies as forward movement or natural progression. To me it just seems utterly formulaic.
"A pretty blond front woman brought us fame before? Let's get another!" "Bluesy music is how Fleetwood Mac got started? Let's capitalize on that!" To me, the entire Time era just seems utterly contrived. If it was truly a step forward and a new beginning, the Time lineup would have come out with a new sound, a new look, they wouldn't have recruited random past members, or put a pretty blond girl out front in a shawl to sing Gold Dust Woman. I guess I just fail to see how a certain subset of folks on this board pan chiffonheads for their blind allegiance to Stevie, when they give the Time incarnation of the band the exact same latitude. It's pure hypocrisy. The whole Time experiment failed because it wasn't genuine, period. Yes, Fleetwood Mac is known for it's lineup changes... but by the time Time was released their image and persona was frozen in the public's mindset. There were no rebirths left in Fleetwood Mac. The bottom line for me? Fleetwood Mac's namesake members have dismissed the Time incarnation... that's all I need to hear. |
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The only part of "contrived" was Dave Mason...Mick was looking elsewhere for a lead guitarist and Dave just bugged him until his defenses were down and Mick relented. The problem is that once again (just like when he had the choice of making less money but keeping Peter Green or going for the "green" and eventually LOSING Peter Green), Mick went for the almighty dollar over doing something more creative with a new lineup of Fleetwood Mac. Instead of possibly reinventing Fleetwood Mac into an entity with integrity, he went for the quick payday and sold out to "what had already been"...you can't recreate the past...but, Mick tried, got his payday, but lost a whole lot of respect in the process. |
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Peter had 6 Top 40 hits, and if you count re-releases, it was 8. Actually, all of his singles went Top 40. Quote:
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If the Behind The Mask and Time lineups were so progressive, unique, or even great, why didn't they last? Because the fans wanted Stevie, Lindsey, and Christine, hence The Dance's success. No matter what anyone says, without Stevie, there is no Fleetwood Mac. In the real world, outside of The Ledge, and outside of hardcore fans, the only song that people will always know is Landslide. Then you have some people that know Dreams, Gold Dust Woman, and Go Your Own Way. Then you have even less people that know Don't Stop and maybe Gypsy or Hold Me. I know this because at my job, Gypsy or Don't Stop will play and I'm all "omg!!!" and they give me blank stares. I say "Fleetwood Mac?", and their response is "Oh..". I am in no way saying that Stevie is the most important, most talented, or most anything other than that she has become Fleetwood Mac.
Also, I would say Oh Well is much more tired than Rumours. |
i kinda liked btm and time, i liked christines song, nights in estoril!
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