Does Stevie Nicks dislike Billy Burnette?
 

One of the reasons Stevie gave for quitting FM in 1990 was, "Mick keeps trying to recreate FM in its heyday and it's simply not going to work." However she never publicly said anything bad about Billy and she hired Rick to perform as lead guitar player on the SA Tour. So really then, what was her real issue for quitting?

From everything I've heard, Stevie and Billy are still on good terms.

I don't think her comments represent anything personal. In fact, Billy made a similar comment specifically regarding Bekka Bramlett. The problem with the post-1987 bands is that the band DID try to recreate the Big Mac instead of letting the new people bring their true personalities into the music, like they did with Welch, Nicks, and Buckingham. Behind The Mask could've been a monster album, but the band caved in to label pressure to focus more squarely on the girls. Billy and especially Rick had better material that got ****canned. I think that rubbed Stevie the wrong way. Even the Tango tour set lists could've been a better showcase for the new guys as well as revisiting the classics.

I definitely agree with everything you said. In addition, Stevie said publicly she should have quit when Lindsey did. 1988-1995 Fleetwood Mac was just a caricature of itself. That's not because the members had changed, but because the band was trying to pretend like it hadn't even happened.

While I'm partial to the Rumours lineup, I think given the chance, the band could have really made some cool music with Rick Vito. In my eyes, Billy Burnette was what made the whole thing cheesy. They didn't need another guitarist. I don't think Billy's style complemented the Mac's at that point either. His presence muddled what possibly could have been an interesting transition. I think Rick's solo song "Intuition" is a good example of how his distinct style could have been exploited within the Mac.

It is a good thing that Christmas is over or you'd be off my Christmas card list :(

:shrug:

Like Lindsey himself said... the fact Lindsey was replaced with not one, but TWO guitarists speaks volumes about the quality of the incoming stock. The fact 2 guitarists replaced one could have actually been used to the band's advantage... it could have shown how serious the band was about mixing up it's formula, thus signaling a new beginning in the band's history. But both Rick and Billy were relegated as sort of a background sideshow, while the band was trying to pretend a major personnel change had NOT just happened.

Again, my whole problem with the '88-'95 era was simply the way everything was done. Some really interesting, cool music could have been made. I don't know though... Billy Burnette's rockabilly style really just didn't have a place within the band, and that's the way I feel. :sorry: I do however think a big opportunity was missed with Rick, but that's ancient history now.

It could be argued that Lindsey actually replaced two guitarists in Weston and Welch given that Weston had not been replaced previously. The band were looking to bring in another guitarist before Welch left, so when Lindsey left they were merely finally getting around to replacing Weston/Welch.

Rick could have held his own quite nicely as a replacement for Mr Buckingham, and while Billy wasn't in the same league as a guitarist, he certainly brought a fresh new sound and feel to the Mac, something that Rick on his own probably wouldn't have achieved.

I guess it could be argued that Buckingham's style really didn't have a place in the band in 1975 either, but that didn't seem to work out too badly for them.

I think that Rick, Billy and later Bekka Bramlett were under-utilised in the band, were not given the freedom to create their own sound. Nicks and Buckingham had it easy in 1975, they weren't expected to write hits, but Rick, Billy and Bekka had a lot of pressure simply because of the history of the band.

Sure, they should have been allowed to do their own thing, create their own music, and be true to themselves. That they didn't really get that opportunity wasn't really their fault.

Honestly though, give me Rick and Billy over Lindsey any day... :shrug:

I definitely completely disagree with you on this. I think In The Back Of My Mind, Talkin' To My Heart, and Do You Know rank as highpoints in Fleetwood Mac's history. I even love When The Sun Goes Down. And, while not a Fleetwood Mac song, his song It Ain't Over, which featured Mick and Christine, should've been a concert staple. I wish they would've let him do a few "Psychobilly" songs. Again, it was a matter of what was chosen. He had other great songs. But, they focused more on the "accessible" songss.

Preposterous. Billy was nothing more than a rhythm guitarist -- the instrumental equivalent of Ray Lindsey.

Rick was the lead on guitar. So instead of getting Lindsey & Ray on "Second Hand News," "Gypsy," & "Go Your Own Way," we got Rick & Billy on most of the set. In terms of guitar numbers, it was the same setup*.

The thing the band lacked during those years (before Richard Dashut came aboard again in 1995) was a studio engineer who knew what the hell he was doing. With Buckingham, Dashut, & Caillat gone, the band suffered as a studio band of former crispness & vitality. As evidence, their concerts continued to sell; it was only their albums that nobody (except the British) was interested in.


*I didn't bring up the presence of workstation hardware because that's a whole nuther subject, & a very unfortunate one.

On the Tango in the Night Tour I think it was a smart idea to feature the music of Christine and Stevie, which they did. Lindsey pulled out of the Tour and the band at the last minute so it was also a smart idea to have the new members play some of the old FM classics. When Stevie and Lindsey first joined FM, they too performed many of FM's classics.
I never cared for Billy's guitar playing. His song In The Back Of My Mind is one of the best FM songs ever, IMO. But that was the ONLY contribution of his that held any worth with me.
Rick Vito should have been the only guitarist hired. It was one thing back in 1987 to except the fact that Lindsey was permanently gone and another thing to try and accept two new replacements. Sorry to say this but Billy was not good looking enough for FM. Rick was.
I enjoyed the Behind The Mask album. It simply wasn't promoted properly. Like I mentioned in another thread I always felt Love Is Dangerous would have made a great lead off single. FM fans have always wished the band would release the most rockin' songs from their records but they or the record companies keep wanting to present them as MOR . They have enough slow songs, so I say keep the radio songs fast and loud.
Time was doomed though because without Stevie Nicks no one(myself included) really gives a damn about FM anymore. I did go see them on the 1995 Tour and Bekka sounded good singing GDW in concert but overall Mick was trying too hard to recreate Stevies' prescence and it really just wasn't gonna work.

Speak for yourself.

The same thing was said when Peter Green left the band. And y'all would've never gotten your twirling ditz queen, had the public taken the view you're putting forward.

While I don't care for Dave Mason, the Time band SHOULD HAVE completely revamped FM, from the ground up. Really pushed Billy and Bekka's songs, reinvented itself, as they had, so many times before.

And Billy could have gone on the road with them anyway, even if Lindsey had stayed. Lindsey knew that 2 guitarists didn't replace him when he said it. He just likes to be mischievous.

Michele

As with your meet and greet comment in Rumours, I suspect you must only have phrased this in such broad, absolute terms to provoke dissent.

Michele

THAT REMINDS ME...Billy Burnette WAS going to be on the tour even if Lindsey had stayed. During the interviews at the time, Mick stated that Lindsey wanted another guitarist. Which was especially easy for me to believe a few years later, when I saw him with four other guitarists, three percussionists, a keyboardist, and a bassist backing him up. (Sadly, that's not an exaggeration.) Lindsey can make that snotty comment all he wants. Fleetwood Mac went on with six musicians in 1995 and ten musicians in 1997. and in 2003. Using his logic, the band was better in 1995.

Exactly. The addition of Rick was more of a late occurance. It's possible that if not for Billy being considered to join Fleetwood Mac that Rick may not have been added. I've always felt that the addition of two new members to the band instead of just one was a great decision. Billy's a fantastic guitarist, but having someone like Rick Vito who provides a completely different element was very important and it would have worked out too. In terms of Billy's style fitting into the band, I think he fit in just fine. If you go through his solo catalogue, Billy has performed a wide variety of music from rockabilly to country to pop, so fitting his unique style within the "confines" of Fleetwood Mac didn't seem to be a problem whatsoever. What might have been just as important as their abilities as arists and musicians is that Rick and Billy lack egos. Of all the members of Fleetwood Mac, they're the two that have the least ego of anyone in the band.

Matt

Why do fans of Green's always relegate to taking cheap shots at Stevie Nicks when others voice their opinions of the band without her? Nicks fans don't hit below the belt calling Green a washed up, ape****-crazy, cheesy-haired flash in the pan :laugh:. His music may not be our personal taste... but we don't degrade the man personally. Nobody was even talking about Peter Green for God's sake... we're in the POST Rumours forum discussing Billy freaking Burnette! We get it... there are a small contingency of guys here who think Stevie was the WORST thing to ever happen to the band. But concert ticket sales will tell you otherwise... they are up sharply when she's with the band, and completely fall off a cliff when she's not. The same could probably have been said about the Green era. He was the original Fleetwood Mac's star. There were a huge chunk of fans who didn't give a **** about the band when he left too. That's the reality of the fickle record and concert ticket buying public... they've gotta have a star to latch on to.

The (unpleasant to some) reality is, by '95 the image of FM was cemented... and it's face was Stevie Nicks. Any deviation from that wouldn't be accepted by the general public. The same could be said of '70 Fleetwood Mac with Peter Green. I honestly have no idea how 5 years later the band was able to rise to fame again and totally reinvent itself. You would have thought the band's legacy would have been cemented at that point as well. Perhaps it was because the success of the Peter Green era was so short lived... and the subsequent bands were pretty obscure and anonymous (before I am jumped on for this, I ADORE Bob Welch, and think he was one of the best things to ever happen to our band). Come '95 though, I think the band was out of reinventions. The Rumours era fame was huge... eclipsing any other lineups before or after it. The general public just wouldn't swallow any other form of the band after that. That may be good, that may be bad, but that's the way it is! :p

Because it's usually the Stevie Nicks fans who say things like "it stopped being Fleetwood Mac after Stevie left." At least that's historically been the case. And, Homer's more of a Christine fan.

I've been making that point for over ten years. Combined, at the time, I think Out Of The Cradle, Street Angel, and Time sold 350K copies. It's hard to place the blame of Time's lack of success on Stevie or Lindsey not being there. The Rumours band not only needed each other for some semblance of commercial success, they also needed the support of the record company and the media, which they got with The Dance. Without that, even if they had recorded one album at that time, it would probably still have tanked by Fleetwood Mac standards. And, Behind The Mask and SYW were about the same in sales, so I have a real hard time saying that Stevie, Lindsey, or Christine are individual saviors of Fleetwood Mac., that without them, Fleetwood Mac might as well pack them in.

Very interesting... I'd never heard Burnette was to be hired even before Lindsey left. I wonder what caused the fundamental change where Fleetwood Mac went from a strictly 5 piece band, to wanting to add more musicians? Was it an insecurity thing? Was Lindsey wanting to help cover up degrading vocals and energy in an aging rock band? Was he getting bored and simply wanted a muse to bounce ideas off of? Did he want some of the pressure and heat taken off of him to be the sole guitarist and self appointed crafter of the band's sound? For Lindsey to be so anti-establishment, his wanting to surround himself with an army of musicians sure doesn't add up. I will absolutely give you that the band is better, much better, without them. I wish the band were still simply touring with only the core members... except I'd allot a keyboard player to them.

I didn't include album sales in my argument, because following Tango, the Mac (and it's solo members) had ceased being an album selling enterprise. They'd aged out of that game. And that would have been the case regardless of whoever was in the band. Concert sales obviously, are another story. The Behind The Mask and Say You Will tours were both pretty successful ventures, despite their backing lackluster selling albums. The Time tour? Not so much. Some of that could certainly be attributed to the times... Fleetwood Mac were about the most uncool band in the market during the reign of Pearl Jam and Nirvana. And the public also loves to tear celebs down so they can simply build them back up. In that case, you could argue ANYTHING the band did in '95 would have flopped. But could the band have succeeded had it continued on past '95 without Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham? I just don't think so.

Because the lack of logic, that most Stevie fans exhibit, makes me want to paint in strokes, that they possibly might understand.:lol:

FM had always been about reinvention(intentional or not), but Stevie sealed the fate of the band, as far as the CHIFFONHEADS are concerned.

God, no offense here, but people think I dislike Stevie, which isn't really true. Her fanbase(not all of them!) is another story.:wavey: :laugh:

So yeah, as far as many Christine, Welch, Green, etc fans are concerned, she's the worst thing that ever happened to FM. Your mileage may vary....

So what this really comes down to is you have to insult me because you don't agree with me. I love Stevie Nicks. She was, is, and will always be my favorite member of FM. I wouldn't consider myself a chiffonhead though, and if I was there is nothing wrong with that either. I also am a fan of Peter Green. And speaking of lack of logic(your words) this entire forum probably wouldn't even exist if Stevie were never a part of FM. That's probably why the SN forum is the most popular.
For you to get angry at another fan because you don't like their opinion is ridiculous.

No, not to provoke anything. Just based on album sales. TIME didn't even go Gold. I suspect sales were under 50,000 even.

Well, it wasn't necessarily going to be Billy, but Billy knew Lindsey. Both Mick and Christine said that Lindsey wanted another guitarist on the road with them anyway. So, it could have been Billy.

Michele

I don't think he wanted anyone else to be the crafter of the band's sound. That's for sure. I think he likes to the be the craftsman. I'm not sure why he likes so many other musicians around. But you're right, he does like to have a muse to bounce ideas off of. I really think that he loves Mick quite a bit and has a certain amount of dependency on him and that's one of the main reasons. His relationship with Richard was certainly a long one and he . . . the way he explains it, these people aren't necessarily brilliant in his eyes, but they do things that turn into something creative, almost by accident. He seems to like to have that experimental spark around him, an atmosphere where failures become inspiration.

Michele

Music is about quality, NOT NUMBERS. Mystery To Me is(IMO) the greatest FM album. But by your measure, it's virtually worthless.

You and Ethan, with your contests....:rolleyes:

Does Stevie Nicks dislike Billy Burnette? Does Stevie Nicks like soymilk? Does Stevie Nicks still embroider stars on Lindsey's jeans?

Of course, I never wanted Lindsey to leave FMac, but I much more preferred Billy to Rick Vito, especially when it came to vocals. Nothing wrong with Rick though. I like his solo work and work with FM. To me, Billy fit in well, especially since he'd already worked with members of Fleetwood Mac.

THAT'S A F-CKING STUPID SHIRT YOU'RE WEARING!
Are you obsessed with Chris McVie?

Just out of curiosity, why would anybody care what Stevie thinks of Billy? In any case, I've never heard/read Stevie say anything at all negative about him and she had worked on her solo material (Rock a Little) as well as with the band.

Anyway, this is the first I've heard of Buckingham wanting a second guitarist, but if they had taken on a second guitarist before LB's departure, Burnette would have been a logical choice - given his collaborations with the various members of the band. Also, it was always my understanding that part of the reason that two new members were brought onboard is because Billy is an excellent songwriter but is by no means a lead guitarist. While Rick is definitely more guitarist than songwriter and both had been friends and had worked together before.

As for Burnette's "Rockabilly" style, that may be his primary sound, but he is entirely capable of playing just about anything and playing it well.

But regardless of what anybody thinks of Burnette and Vito's talents, the fact is they never really stood a chance. It's a rare band indeed that can lose such a key member - not just a guitarist, but also singer, songwriter and producert - and not suffer on the charts. Though the complete inflexibility of a certain sub-group of Fleetwood Mac's fanbase doesn't help matters.

Lindsey had talked for years about the necessity of having to "paraphrase" (his term) the songs in concert, owing to the intricate, multilayered nature of the studio tracks. He never seemed totally happy about that. His interest in wanting to add another guitarist for the full set jibes with the comments he made over the years (as far back as the Rumours tour).

Frankly, I'm surprised the band didn't attempt this for the 1982 tour.

As long as Mick is behind the kit it will always be Fleetwood Mac.

It's kind of strange to me that the same band that would say, "Let's go out there and do Farmer's Daughter," would just sadly shake their heads and weep because Hold Me doesn't sound good live. You've got 4 talented musicians and 3 vocalists who, together, make hearts ache. Experiment a little. As Tim Gunn would say: Make it work.

It's sad to be imprisoned by your own production feats.

Michele

Here's part of an interview where Stevie responded to the 2 guitarists question in 1990.

STEVIE: It didn't take two guitarists to replace Lindsey; Fleetwood Mac has had as many as three guitarists, even four, in its long history. However, having a rhythm guitarist and a lead guitarist makes the live shows much more true to life, [it] gives the band that extra fullness that we have on records so what you do on stage sounds very much like the record. I feel that the audience has to appreciate that factor, since I appreciate it so much, and once again, this means you are giving more to them, and to me, that is the most important thing of all. Again, the quality of all of our lives improves. This makes us happy campers. As far as the writing of songs together, this is a dream come true because I always wanted it to be that way, but it never was. Solidarity. . .the songs were good, but the separatism was consistent.

MUSIC PAPER: Why exactly did Lindsey Buckingham leave the group?

STEVIE: Lindsey left the group because he could no longer deal with the pressure of feeling responsible for it, though he need not have taken it so seriously, but he did. So that was the way he looked at it and I feel that it was just too much for him. When he and I split up in the very beginning, Lindsey was never quite able to understand what had happened to us, and that in itself had to make day-to-day living very difficult for him, and it did for me. I feel that after 12 years, Lindsey and I finally broke up, not Fleetwood Mac, and that is the tragic part. We continued because Fleetwood Mac does not and never has been one to quit anything. I think we were probably more surprised at Lindsey's departure than the whole rest of the world.

Yeah, I don't think they realized that at the time.

They never actually did a proper tour for Time. They stopped touring BEFORE the album was released, and only did a corporate show after it came out.

However, it's not like Stevie's touring for Street Angel was all that big. And Lindsey opened for Tina Turner. In fact, Lindsey's album rave reviews and he even made videos for it, and it only sold about the same as Time.

I absolutely think it could have. But, they would've had to work with a changing paradigm. But, to do that, they would've had to get over the notion that the band is a "supergroup" and move more towards being a creative entity.

If they could've gone a little more country, there was a huge alt.country movement going on at that time that they could have capitalized on. This is the scene that brought the likes of Lucinda Williams, Uncle Tupelo/Wilco/Son Volt, and Steve Earl to the forefront. Bekka Bramlett and Billy Burnette could have easily lead the band down that road. With Christine out of the picture, the band would've needed to part company with Dave Mason and maybe bring in somebody like John's friend Mick Taylor, who was instrumental in helping the Rolling Stones craft their country sound. I'm not saying that there would have been huge concert sales, but there would've been a consistent fan base. I easily see them being able to hang with the likes of Wilco, who usually draw huge crowds at mid-sized venues.

Out Of The Cradle, which got rave reviews, didn't go gold, and Lindsey made several videos, appeared on all of the radio and television shows (including a PBS/VH-1 special), and did a lot of extensive touring in support of that album.

Time generally got so-so to bad reviews and the band did absolutely no promotion for that album whatsoever. Fleetwood Mac basically broke-up immediately after it came out (mainly because the big reunion was already underway). Their tours prior to its release were a way to make money and build chops as a band.

The sad thing is that the two albums sold about the same.

Actually, in an interview I read at the time (God, it was 22 years ago, so don't ask where), Mick specifically stated that Billy was the guitarist they all agreed on.

It leads to a great "what if", doesn't it? What if Lindsey had stayed and they brought in Billy?

That would have been splendid. Billy has an amusing dingaling quality (he's a comedian, really) & well-trained harmony chops, as well as lots of rockabilly-derived gutsy rhythms in his guitar playing, which pump fast energy into the music.

Even better, having Billy around with the Fireflies might have -- might have -- prevented the amassing of workstation hardware that encrusted their live shows from that point on.

Lisa, I laugh at your sheep, AND quote, EVERY TIME I see it!:wavey:


What if Billy Brunette ate too much laxative? Would he have a poo onstage?

I thought Ray Lindsey played rhythm guitar with them for years... :shrug:

Yeah but only on less than a handful of songs (same with Jeff Sova on analog synthesizer).

On the great majority of guitar-intricate songs in the set, Buckingham paraphrased: "Oh Daddy," "Say You Love Me," "I'm So Afraid," "Over My Head," "The Chain," "You Make Loving Fun," "Gold Dust Woman," "Sara," "Sisters of the Moon," "Tusk," "Love in Store," "Hold Me," etc.

Leads to good question, though, about why Ray didn't play the whole set with them.

I remember that for me Rick Vito was a hired studio musician to replace LB and Billy was someone the whole band liked, who had frontman quality and could write songs plus he was fun to be around. I liked the "Mask" album when it came out, liked Billy's contributions, especially "Do you know" with Christine, I totally liked Billy when I saw FM on tour in 90. From an interview about the video for "As long as you follow" I know that Christine didn't take him seriously, but she has a long history in not taking the guitar player seriously. And why should she?

That's all, peace out.