The Death Of Fleetwood Mac...Time
 

First off I had this response all written out and then through some
computer magic, I must have hit the wrong button and lost the whole
thing. So thank your lucky stars.

And now an edited version:

Bretonbaquet,
Of course some of my comments were meant to "antagonise". Much
like your "Steve still waiting tables" statemeant. I used the word imposters
to describe the members of the band that were there without Peter, Lindsey
and Stevie. As I've already listed in the other locked thread the real stars
were:

Peter, Mick, John, Christine, Lindsey and Stevie .

And that's it.

TrueFaith77,
How do I seperate Danny and Jeremy because they were there when
Peter left? That kind of answers itself. Peter was the heartbeat of the
band. Without him they just started drifting into a bland band.

And the reason I didn't continue the story about the band during
the Lindsey, Stevie and Christine years is because everyone already
knows about the amazing success that version had. Without finding
Buckingham Nicks the band would have been forgotten.

I love Stevie and Christine too (Stevie's the reason I became a Mac fan),
but without Lindsey they became a boring bland band again.

So even though I think Danny, Jeremy, Bob, Billy, Rick and Bekka are
talented, their versions of Fleetwood Mac Light were hurtful to
the band's image.

Does anyone on this board really think that Behind The Mask and
Time didn't hurt the image of the band. The band's brand was going
down, down, down.

It would have been really sad if that's the way the Mac's story would have
ended. Without The Dance and even the mediocre Say You Will
to give them real credibility, or a respectable legacy - those other versions
would have been the death of Fleetwood Mac.

I appreciate your opinion iamnotafraid, but what exactly do you feel was the death of Fleetwood Mac - the Behind the Mask and Time albums themselves, or the new members. What in your opinion makes the albums so bad or individual new members so bad? Should the band had called it quits when Peter or even Lindsey left?

I notice you state your opinions openly, but don't seem to provide evidence to support your opinions.
If you got fired, laid off from your job, would you be going around giving your former boss and former company the highest praise?

Thanks for your responses.
I shall answer after the Miami
Dolphins game tonight. Which
starts in just a few minutes...

Probably should've taken that as an omen and just left it alone. But, no. Had to "go there"...AGAIN. :mad:

oh, f*** :distress:

Off the meds again? Still?


You really are mentally constipated.

Yeah, ME! The "brand" as you so derrogetarily refer to it already was tainted once Peter Green left the band, but thanks to the remaining members and all members that came along after that (Christine McVie, the two BW's, the CA couple, Rick, Billy, the two Daves, & Bekka) kept the band a working viable entity. The Rumours success was an anomaly, a curse, that the band would and will never escape from.

The fatal blow to the band was Rumours...and the proof of that was The Dance. Because they couldn't remove themselves from the Rumours curse in the meantime, they took a giant leap backwards and became for all eternity, an oldies retro band. Forget any future creativity, they were stuck forever in the Rumours quicksand.

Your logic still doesn't hold on the Jeremy/Danny not being the true Fleetwood Mac... because... your whole point is that a similar blanding occurred when Rick and Billy joined... which means according to that same logic... Christine was part of the post-Peter blanding and Stevie and Christine were (like Jeremy/Danny) around for the blanding after Lindsey left. Which means, you ACTUALLY only think that Fleetwood Mac is Fleetwood Mac if Peter and Lindsey are there: Mick, John, Christine, Stevie are all incidental according to your logic.

ETA: Now I understand. Peter Green is the heartbeat (he worked with Jeremy and Danny separately for example). AND Lindsey-Stevie-Christine are, as a unit, the heartbeat.

Your internal logic is sound.

However, to Chili's point--and to your particular standards--do you think the band's blanding began before Behind the Mask, with Mirage, in which the Rumours juggernaut proved to great for them to successfully negotiate?

My pov is conflicted: I admire and enjoy all eras of Fleetwood Mac and I see how that history participated in the three Off-White albums of the late 70s, which I regard as a pinnacle in ALL OF MUSIC. But if THAT brand were smudged, it began with Mirage, no?

Compromised though it may be (as we know as insiders rather than as fresh listeners, I contend), I consider Say You Will to be the greatest American album of the 00s. To put it in perspective, Mirage and Tango (both of which I love) wouldn't make my Top 50 of the 80s (I don't even know if they'd make the top 10 for their respective years!).

I have a friend who believes in the "brand" concept as well. Look at something like Roxy Music where every album must be perfection and for which Bryan daringly retired the name at its greatest financial and international success. For him, the Mac should have ended with Tusk. And he argues that 90s Mac didn't "look" right--and in part he intuits the compromise at the heart of them, in which certain artists may have been forced into the Rumours mold. I happen to think this means he is missing some wonderful moments and wonderful records (even Behind the Mask is a fascinating whole; I feel the cover captures the album's quality of being steeped in American folk/pop lore--of which the Rumours Mac were an undeniable part).

And, THUS, I feel that therefore the definition of the Mac is, in fact, held in the much-hated Time album in which Mick reveals that the Mac is his way of honoring Peter Green. And, THAT is as good a definition of the "real" Fleetwood Mac as I need.

Chili and I won't agree on the worth of revisiting Rumours on The Dance or on the more-than-a-fluke specialness of that phenomenon. However, I think the point is to call something the "real" fleetwood mac or not kinda misses the larger issue of how and where and why and to what point Fleetwood Mac became what it became at different junctures.

Just some thoughts.

Well the Dolphins lost so I'll try and not let that affect
what I write about this band we all love and loathe.

My green eyed friend I do believe "Say You Will"
was a mediocre album. Mostly because of Stevie. Her
only contribution to that album was Goodbye Baby
(a song NOT about her abortions, as some think).

I imagine the outtakes of Destiny Rules goes something like
this...

Stevie - Lindsey I can't sing that high, lower key please...
Lindsey - I can't sing that high either, but just how low can we go?
Stevie - Can you still work your magic with the VSO?
Lindsey - What if I just whisper my lyrics?

They sound for the most part like they need their batteries
replaced or something. I do like a few of Lindsey's songs from
Say You Will. Even the much hated "Come". That song rocked
in concert. It's just sad to me that they couldn't put out a better
album. I think Lindsey and Stevie had their chance to shine
and they blew it. Less Stevie and a few Christine songs would
or could have made this album better. This album could have
been a decent solo album for Lindsey. But $$$ talks.

ChiliD and MacShadows,
I'll reply to you guys later.
I know it's killing you to know
what I think.

Hmmm.........

lol

see my revision

And while I once loved Rumours, more than any album, of any time, it truly was FM's CURSE. Good lord, they're still milking the shipper's fantasies, 34 YEARS after it came out. That, in and of itself, makes them jokes and sellouts, as artists. That's right, JOKES AND SELLOUTS. It's beyond pathetic...they've made the band's legacy, a joke. Because they're nothing but a Rumours TRIBUTE band, now. Acknowledging nothing from SYW, shows that it was a failed effort, and they feel nothing from it, was worthy of the fans hearing again.

Time was the best thing to ever happen to FM. God forbid that lineup had ever been given the chance to shine, though. I'm no Dave Mason fan, but B & B were great additions. But the jello mold had been set, and as long as Mick could talk S&L into returning, Mick could return to making his mortgage payments.:mad:

Seriously? Peter Green the founder wasn't? How about Bob Welch, who pretty much single handedly kept the band alive for a half decade while it was slowly self-destructing? And who knows... without the rampant success of the Buckingham Nicks era, the band could have disentigrated long before the critically and commercially acclaimed Time was recorded... the album that was heralded by fans and critics as the savior of Fleetwood Mac and rock history alike! ;)

I won't deny that Rumours was the worst thing to happen to the band. But I have differing reasons why I believe that to be the case. Mainly, it was all downhill from Rumours. The album was so good it just couldn't be matched ever again. On top of that it was so successful it's sales could never be matched. Not to mention the fact that one album alone has dominated the band ever since, and all of us hardcore fans are SICK of it. And I truly am sick of it... whenever I hear Don't Stop or Go You Own Way these days my stomach turns :laugh:.

But it's not all gloom and doom, though. Via Rumours countless fans have been exposed to iterations of Fleetwood Mac they likely never would have heard. I know I wouldn't have even listened to the '70-75 era albums without having been roped in by Rumours first... much less been able to fall in love with that period. There is no doubt Buckingham Nicks kept the band alive for decades too... albeit at the cost of the band's soul atrophying.

While I'm responding to this thread, I just have to attack the notion that's upheld by a vocal minority that the Time era of Fleetwood Mac was more genuine than the Rumours one. To me, Lindsey's (and subsequently, Stevie's) being hired into the band was an organic thing. The band needed a new guitarist because Bob Welch was on his way out, so they hired Lindsey. After Stevie left, Mick knew he needed another pretty blond girl to get the band some attention and get some butts in the seats... hence his hiring of Bekka. To me, the reasons why Bekka was hired were far less pure than why Lindsey (and as a freebie, Stevie) were hired. But that's just my opinion. And while I'm just laying it all out there, let's not forget Mick, Chris, John, and Lindsey have all dismissed the Time era... and have all referred to the Rumours incarnation of the band as the lineup of Fleetwood Mac. And I agree... without Chris these days, it's no longer "THE" lineup, IMO... and the magic of Fleetwood Mac has evaporated.

Rant over... feel free to feed on me like rabid piranhas! :laugh:

http://seedorama.com/wp-content/uplo...0/piranha3.png

:laugh: On my god, you little troll.

I don't want to address the less lucid points that have been made in this thread, but I think a lot of fans overlook the fact that Fleetwood Mac haven't been musically relevant for a very long time. In fact, the last time they were anything approaching dynamic, and produced music that didn't originate from the 70s and 80s, was for Time.

Up to 1976, Fleetwood Mac always tried new things, new members, new styles - they were willing to take risks, like following Bob's idea of moving to the US. All of the members had contributed to this organic development of the band. Most had, at some time or another, been the individual thread that the band's existence hung on - that's certainly true of Peter obviously, but also Jeremy, Danny and Bob Welch.

After Rumours, the band's creativity disappeared. Whatever anyone thinks of Stevie and Christine, neither of them were ever musically progressive, not in the slightest. Lindsey was, and is, of course - but his creativity was hamstrung by being in Fleetwood Mac. Therein lies the popularity - people that are not musically adventurous like a band that isn't musically adventurous - it appeals to most people.

For Behind the Mask, Lindsey was gone, and replaced by a couple of guys who were talented and musically very capable, but not terribly quirky or interesting. Therefore that album is the most tedious of all the band's output (imo) - at least Time was interesting. Then they went back and lived in the 70s for the next 15 years. They basically felt, and were made to feel by the media and the fans, that they weren't allowed to experiment or take risks any more, and the Rumours stuff was all they were ever required to do. And (here's where I get crucified) I think the rabid Stevie fanatics were at the very crux of that. Anything that isn't Stevie doing the same old stuff, just isn't Fleetwood Mac to them. So Mac ceased to be a proper band, and these words "brand" and "franchise" rear their ugly heads. Those words have no place in music - music isn't about that s**t. So a lot of people are happy with that, including at least one person on this thread - fine. A lot of people like Big Macs too - doesn't make them good food.

Fleetwood Mac late 1960's = Huge
Fleetwood Mac late 1970's = Epic
Fleetwood Mac Mid 1990's = ?

Thats my whole theory. To be honest, I don't like what FM had become. You can't just take prominent singers and replace with someone else. Now, that does not necessarily mean that Bekka and friends aren't good (I have never listened to time).

guilty as charged :laugh:

Absolutely profound. Note also how people always blame Lindsey for forcing her to make strange sounding records like those on Say You Will.

OMG. Okay, on a positive note, I agree with you that they have not been relevant since the 80s. But I have to totally disagree that Time was even remotely "dynamic," let alone "progressive." It was very middle-of-the-road, very generic and bland adult pop that would not have been out of place on a Wilson Phillips album.

Uh... wut? Seriously? Ever heard of Tusk? It is arguably the most musically progressive album ever produced by any artist. It really reset the bar for 70s arena rock albums and has an enduring legacy of bands inspired by the sound of this album - Wilco, Arcade Fire, Jayhawks, etc. And even lesser albums like Tango were novel (if not innovative) for their time. We all know how heavily this album continues to be sampled even to this day.

The beauty of a band like Fleetwood Mac is that, as a group of equal contributors, they force each other to bring out their best while weeding out their less desirable traits. This push/pull musical tension is what creates magic. We get the best of Lindsey without getting all of his tendency for self-indulgence. I don't think he is "hamstrung" as much as he is "refined" within the confines of FM.

Indeed, BTM was not their best album ever, but I would hardly call it "tedious." In fact, it is arguably one of their more diverse, interesting efforts. It's an olio of all sorts of morsels - pop, blues, rockabilly, folk, prog rock, etc. At the end of the day, you can't help but give them a B+ for effort considering that their primary creative voice had departed. Nobody contributed their best material to the album, but it seems that the voices of Christine and Stevie can make practically anything sparkle.


If you think BTM was "tedious," how on earth can you find Time "interesting?" There is nothing... nothing new, novel or fresh about Time. Don't get me wrong- I loved Christine's songs for the most part, but I do have to admit that the production/arrangements were pretty lackluster. Otherwise it's full of very bland California pop along with some soulless bluesy meanderings.

I think the only album that was consciously moulded in homage of Rumours was Mirage. Otherwise, I have to disagree yet again. Although it is far from perfect the SYW album was perhaps the most far-reaching, ambitious album they've ever released, and Lindsey takes full credit or blame for this, depending on how you look at it. Other than the title track, I don't think there is a single song on that album that could have fit on Rumours.

Well, I guess you are saying, in a roundabout way, that Stevie is the sole reason why Fleetwood Mac is/was successful?


I believe it was Lindsey who first posited the term "brand" around the time of The Dance. Say what you will about "branding," but it is definitely important. Look at what a nightmare it was when the fake Fleetwood Mac was touring the U.S. in the early 70s? And how would you feel if Benny and Bjorn reunited "ABBA" with new girl singers? It's one thing if they started a new band with a new name, but coopting the ABBA name would just be beyond the pale.

In reading the replies here, it seems there are some who like Behind the Mask and hate Time, while others hate Behind the Mask and like Time. :confused: I guess I like them both equally, but with FM its hard to "hate" and/or "like" an album w/contributions from multiple writers/vocalists.

Just for fun, what do you guys think Fleetwood Mac should have done in '87 when Lindsey left abruptly? I believe FM were obligated to tour - should they had canceled to tour and disbanded? :shrug:

After reading the posts here, I wanted to jump into the pool. I have a few things to bring up but I don't have time so let me just say briefly that, yeah, I'm really tired of Rumours too even through it will always hold a special place in my heart. I think Tusk is the great FWM album. I actually like BTM a great deal. I wish Rick and Billy had been allowed to do a couple more albums.

I wish the band (SLCMJ) had held it together after Rumours to take advantage of their success to make great music together for the rest of their lives.

But they didn't.

Since that didn't happen, I wish that the band (even if just SLMJ) had held it together after The Dance to make great music together for the rest of their lives.

But they didn't.

Since that didn't happen either, I wish that Mick (and John) had been able to be more liberated (even from within themselves) in doing Fleetwood Mac work without S&L, while always welcoming them back into the fold should they so choose.

But they weren't.

I'll always feel that the right thing was done by bringing in Billy and Rick. I wish that they, along with Bekka would have had a chance to make multiple albums with the band (in Billy's case more than two albums.)

Matt

I didn't actually say that Time was progressive, but I'm not talking about progression in terms of music in general - the changes were progressive in terms of the band's direction. I would say that the blandest songs on there are Christine's anyway.

If you think Tusk was the most musically progressive album ever produced by anyone, then your record collection must be tiny. OK, I'll qualify my statement - of course it was a radical departure from Rumours, but only Lindsey was particularly creative on that album, and he was never really allowed to do it again :lol: Even then, a lot of his songs on there are pretty similar, and after a while, that stuff was too outré for Fleetwood Mac. Stevie and Chris weren't doing anything progressive on there. That's not to say it's not good - it is. But the creativity was limited to one member, and it did not resurface to any great degree on future albums. Certain aspects (Lindsey) of Tango in the Night were innovative, but the end product was safe. In the UK at least, Mac were already old hat. I was 14 at the time, and it was popular with people my parents' age.

True, but what that also does is weed out any tendency towards risk-taking, which is where a band's musical development comes from. Take no risks, you stand still, which is what they've done for years.

I do think it's tedious. There are various genres on there, but we're dipping our toes into all of them, without really exploring any of them. It's blues lite, rockabilly lite, folk lite, and no prog rock at all. It was the result of using new members without really letting rip. Stevie was atrocious on parts of that album, which didn't help.

Well, there's no accounting for taste - Behind the Mask was lacklustre and in parts, really formulaic. "Stand on the Rock", anyone? Why Rick's better songs weren't used is a mystery. Yes, Time was interesting, starting with Bekka. Dave Mason's songs were ordinary but decent enough, and Christine's were fairly bland, but Bekka and Billy provided some really decent stuff. Even Mick got an outing for one of his weird pieces, something which had previously been restricted to B-sides ("Lizard People") or not tried at all. And there's no blues on Time.

Maybe you're listening to a different Say You Will to the one I have. I'd agree that Lindsey ran that show, and it's decent. Otherwise I'd say it was an exercise in making a Mac album that sounded half like a Lindsey solo album, and half like a Stevie outtake album. Still a good album though, don't get me wrong. I'd also agree that very few of those songs would have been comfortable on Rumours, but then 24 years will do that to a band. Why no album since then, by the way? Because there are no new ideas.

:lol: No. I'd say she provided the style, while Lindsey provided the substance. Chris did a little of both. I fully believe that without Fleetwood Mac, Stevie would not have had much of a career.

:shocked:

Then shame on him. The fake Mac was a different thing. There's worrying about a band stealing your name, and then there's worrying about protecting a brand at the expense of musical integrity. Again, ABBA were a different thing - they'd never had different members for a start, whereas Stevie and Lindsey were latecomers. That's what a lot of people don't get - Fleetwood Mac had always been a revolving door of members. If Peter Green could be replaced, then so could Stevie and Lindsey. Musically, it was possible of course, but they followed the money instead. Nothing wrong in that, but denying it is pointless. All four of them are chasing the dollars, and the music is a poor second. I love them as much as anyone, but I can't pretend to think otherwise.

I meant AFTER Rumours. Finally, a reinvention.

I'm torn about whether they should have carried on after Lindsey left. On the one hand, I absolutely loved the Shake the Cage tour. On the other hand, the chemistry within the band was almost all gone. Yes, Billy and Rick are capable singers and guitarists. But they were terribly lacking in terms of gravitas. Sure, you could see and hear them on stage. But they were almost a distraction rather than someone you looked forward to seeing. I think it would have been one thing if they trotted out amazing songs or dazzled us with their showmanship and charisma. But their songs were middling, they were kind of dull to watch in concert and they, especially Rick, lacked charisma. They were club-sized personalities playing arenas.

I do believe they should have carried on. However, I think they should have carried on with someone who was a marquee name in his/her own right. Someone who was more of a singer/songwriter than an instrumentalist (and not necessarily a guitarist per se). Someone who could step up to the plate in terms of production and arrangement. Someone who could take Fleetwood Mac in another musical direction. Someone who can re-interpret Lindsey's songs in concert without sounding like karaoke. Trevor Rabin of Yes comes to mind. Tommy Shaw of Styx, perhaps? Billy Squier? In any case, after the Shake the Cage tour they should have probably bid Billy and Rick adieu and then searched in earnest for a permanent replacement for Lindsey.

After playing hundreds of shows with Bob Seger's Silver Bullet Band and Jackson Browne, both "arena" sized acts, there's no way Rick was a "club-sized personality" and no "charisma"? :eek: You're sadly mistaken.

Hmmmm...how about Dave Mason?? Oh, yeah, that didn't work, either. Next bright idea??

Oh LORD NOOOOOOOOO! (on any of those three)...talk about your "bland" personalities! YIKES!!!!

{sarcasm} Hell, maybe they should've gotten Ritchie Blackmore & Candice Night to replace BOTH Lindsey & Stevie?? {/sarcasm}


Just remember people, Behind The Mask went to # f-ing 1 in the UK charts and #18 in the US, so there were quite a few people who really didn't mind, or care, that Lindsey was gone.

To me from a business standpoint....they should have done one of two things
Got someone like Eric Clapton, Joe Walsh, Bonnie Raitt, Santana or brought back Bob Welch (someone who had their own thing)
-OR-
They could have just incorporated Waddy Wachtel and joined the Stevie Nicks solo show into Fleetwood Mac. If she did her solo songs in that lineup, along with Christine's contributions, you wouldn't have needed another singer/writer.

I do think having to two guitarists post '87 was a mistake. Both incredibly talented guitarists, but you needed a writer/producer to replace Lindsey not just a guitar player.

Hell!! Three of the dullest guys in rock. Instead of trying to find someone to re-interpret Lindsey's songs, they could just... write some new ones.

:distress:

Or just open a sugar factory and be done with it :laugh:

Billy was hired mainly as a singer, not so much as guitarist...Rick was brought in because he was a top-notch guitarist, that he could also write & sing was a plus.

No, it's not always a member of the band that makes a good producer; it just kind of happened that Lindsey worked (for the most part..but, sometimes that can be a detriment, too...Tusk?? Say You Will??)...they didn't have a member of the band as a producer prior to Rumours...and Ken Caillat & Richard Dashut shared producer credits with Lindsey after that.

Exactly! I'm not a fan of Lindsey's songs anyway, so him gone didn't affect me liking Behind the Mask and Time.

As far as FM members, I'm more of a Christine / Stevie fan. Judging by the results of the battle of the songs so far, most Ledgies seem to agree. Lindsey's songs have yet to win an album battle. Christine and Stevie were the hit makers of the group, actually might be more Christine than Stevie.

"Group" meaning Rumours era...

Somebody wanna post the singles from the Rumours era and chart listings? :shrug:

Okay according to wikipedia, Christine had 9 Top 40 hits, Stevie had 5, and Lindsey had 3. Thats from the US charts - Rumours Era.

Um... playing in an arena to support an arena act does not automatically give you an arena-sized personality. Rick has supported Fleetwood Mac and Stevie Nicks on their arena/shed tours. So what's your point? He's still as low-key and underwhelming as a live performer as ever.

I didn't say "insert any has-been-over-the-hill-old-fart" as Lindsey's replacement. I think, perhaps with you as the sole exception, Dave Mason's appointment as a member of FM has been universally panned.


I was referring to singer/songwriters/guitarists who just happened to be somewhat available around the time Lindsey left the band. Yeah, we'd all love to see Eric Clapton and Paul McCartney in the band; and hey, what the hell... let's include George Harrison too. But we all know that's just too impossible to even speculate. I was talking about musicians who realistically could have fit with FM at the time- not necessarily the best in class. I personally love Trevor Rabin; he drastically refreshed the Yes sound while retaining the essence that made them who they are. He's a tremendous guitarist/singer/songwriter/producer, and his unique style is undeniable. I think it would be interesting to re-imagine Behind the Mask recorded in the style of Yes' Big Generator.

Yes, it was the first FM studio album in eons not to crack the U.S. Top 10. Plus only one single charted in the U.S.- barely in the Top 40. The fact that it was such a bigger hit in the UK can be attributed directly to the overhang from Christine's Tango singles, which were mega-hits over there. The reality is that, despite Stevie's presence (her 1989 solo album quickly went Top 10 and gold), fans were balking at the presence of the new guys/lack of Lindsey. It was not a terrible album by any stretch. But it lacked the drama, the darkness, the passion of a Lindsey-helmed effort. The allure of the Rumours lineup has never been strictly about the music (for chrissakes, "Dreams" is a two-chord song!). It's always been about the unique voices/harmonies and personalities that created dramatic tension, and Lindsey was a huge part of that. It was the perfect chemical reaction. We've all heard various subsequent iterations with remnants of Rumours- Stevie and Chris, Chris, Stevie and Lindsey... but they never came close to the magic of the Rumours Five. To deny their compelling chemistry is pure delusion.

Well, personally, I thought he took Yes and changed them into a Journey/Styx/Foreigner clone band...just made them nauseating. "Owner Of A Lonely Heart"? Hand me the puke-bucket! So, as far as I'm concerned, keep him the hell away from Fleetwood Mac.

I'm looking at the album within the context of its time. With bands like Wilco and Death Cab for Cutie now a dime-a-dozen, Tusk doesn't sound all that radical. But at the end of the '70s, no mainstream rock group was making music like this; considering that a sequel to Rumours was practically a given, they completely threw everyone a curve ball. This album came completely out of left field. It is as important in rock music as the trifecta of late 60s albums from the Beatles.

I have to disagree. Yes, Lindsey went the furthest afield... but being different simply for the sake of being different does not automatically make you "creative." I think everyone flexed their creative muscles on this album. Christine, the master of 3-minute pop treats, delivered a surprisingly spare/unembellished jazz-tinged song like "Brown Eyes." Stevie took her ethereal persona to the nth degree in the sprawling epic "Sara." Sure, other songs remained true to form. But you simply can't have a Fleetwood Mac album that tries too hard not to sound like Fleetwood Mac!


I really don't think you've listened to Say You Will. Sure, there are some safe, pleasant, radio-oriented singles on there- those are a given. But what about songs like "Everybody Finds Out," "Illume," "Murrow" and "Red Rover?" They've never, ever done anything like that before. And although the production of "Smile at You" has been almost universally hated (myself included), you can't deny that it ventures into totally new musical territory for FM.


"In the Back of My Mind" is semi-prog. And I agree, Stevie's contributions on BTM were not among her best ever.

I know. I know because people have the audacity to defend Time. :lol:

Given your somewhat dubious praise of Time above, I think "Stand on the Rock" would have fit perfectly on it! In fact, I wish it was there and not on BTM.


Um... because Lindsey is an ass and Stevie misses Christine. Oops... it's no longer 2009. Um... I think Lindsey has been giving us nothing but "new ideas" since SYW. And Stevie is in the process of giving us something new. I think the fact that they have not gotten together is more of a political issue than an artistic issue.


Well, I think legions of Stevie fans would disagree, but she seems to be one of those extremely polarizing figures- you either love her or hate her. There is no such thing as being indifferent about Stevie Nicks.


Well, when Peter Green left the band, they really had no choice but to carry on as Fleetwood Mac due to contractual obligations. And it seems that, in the past, whenever Fleetwood Mac changed its lineup, it was done in small increments for the sake of continuity- a member here, a member there, etc. I think the next logical step after BTM would have been a Chris, Billy, Rick, John and Mick lineup. Instead, Mick did the unthinkable... the almost unforgiveable... he tried to replace Stevie Nicks! He can deny it all he wants to, but it was no mere coincidence that he enlisted this new member who was a cute blonde chick singer who stood center stage. He failed to grasp then what he now knows the hard way- Stevie Nicks cannot be replaced. Period. Ask any Chiffonhead. There are just some things in the world that you just don't f*** with. You just don't f*** with Mama!

What is Fleetwood Mac:

a) A popular 1960's british blues band, led by Peter Green
b) A new band headed by Christine Mcvie, Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks.

Peter, Christine, Lindsey and Stevie all have on thing in common - they are unique. Thats what made the Mac the Mac. You cannot just take them away - and call it the same.

I guess I just fail to see how the Time chapter qualifies as forward movement or natural progression. To me it just seems utterly formulaic.

"A pretty blond front woman brought us fame before? Let's get another!"

"Bluesy music is how Fleetwood Mac got started? Let's capitalize on that!"

To me, the entire Time era just seems utterly contrived. If it was truly a step forward and a new beginning, the Time lineup would have come out with a new sound, a new look, they wouldn't have recruited random past members, or put a pretty blond girl out front in a shawl to sing Gold Dust Woman. I guess I just fail to see how a certain subset of folks on this board pan chiffonheads for their blind allegiance to Stevie, when they give the Time incarnation of the band the exact same latitude. It's pure hypocrisy. The whole Time experiment failed because it wasn't genuine, period. Yes, Fleetwood Mac is known for it's lineup changes... but by the time Time was released their image and persona was frozen in the public's mindset. There were no rebirths left in Fleetwood Mac.

The bottom line for me? Fleetwood Mac's namesake members have dismissed the Time incarnation... that's all I need to hear.

What the Time bashers seem to overlook is that Bekka had been in Mick's sideband The Zoo for three years before Mick asked her to be in the newly reconstituted Fleetwood Mac. Same with Billy Burnette...he was in The Zoo a couple of incarnations prior to Bekka. Nothing contrived there...it was just a natural progression. It wasn't as if Mick & John held 12 hour a day auditions until they found "THE" blonde singer to take Stevie's place. (Unlike, let's say, JOURNEY, who purposely did a worldwide search for a Steve Perry soundalike) IF Mick was TRYING to find a "replacement" for Stevie Nicks, there are a whole lot of Stevie Nicks wannabes floating around Southern California that he could've chosen f rom. He didn't.

The only part of "contrived" was Dave Mason...Mick was looking elsewhere for a lead guitarist and Dave just bugged him until his defenses were down and Mick relented.

The problem is that once again (just like when he had the choice of making less money but keeping Peter Green or going for the "green" and eventually LOSING Peter Green), Mick went for the almighty dollar over doing something more creative with a new lineup of Fleetwood Mac. Instead of possibly reinventing Fleetwood Mac into an entity with integrity, he went for the quick payday and sold out to "what had already been"...you can't recreate the past...but, Mick tried, got his payday, but lost a whole lot of respect in the process.

Over here in the UK, Christine had 4 Top 40 hits, Lindsey had 4, and Stevie had 2. Chris and Lindsey had 2 Top 10 hits each, while Stevie's best shot was "Dreams" at #24.

Peter had 6 Top 40 hits, and if you count re-releases, it was 8. Actually, all of his singles went Top 40.

True fact. Even Time charted over here. None of Behind the Mask's or Time's singles reached the Top 50 here though. "Save Me" was a hit in Europe but not in the UK. Fleetwood Mac have only had 2 charting songs in the last 20 years in the UK - "Love Shines" (#83) and "The Chain" (#94) after it was reinstalled as the theme music to the Formula One coverage.

I'll agree that 70s mainstream rock bands weren't doing anything radical, particularly in the US, but over here, punk had pushed rock bands into doing different things. It might be a US/UK thing - Tusk is all but forgotten here. I have to disagree strongly about that last sentence though...

"Brown Eyes" was a little different for Chris, but her other songs were typical Christine. I'm not really knocking that as such, because she had a formula which worked. So did Stevie, and changing it was a risk - they were already a bit shackled by their success.

"Illumé" I find hard to listen to :sorry: "Murrow" and "Red Rover" were a bit of a departure, but not in terms of what Lindsey had been doing outside Mac, which most Mac fans would have been familiar with. That's what I mean by it sounding half like a Lindsey solo album.


Gotta stand up for your beliefs! ;) I think the big difference is whether you view it as a standalone album and take it on its merits, or compare it to what went before.

Probably true, but then Bekka's backing vocals might have dragged it up a notch or two.

Lindsey has had new ideas, but clearly nobody felt they were suitable to become Fleetwood Mac songs. Stevie's coming up with new stuff? :shocked: I sense the fabric of the space-time continuum straining under the shock :laugh: I'd say a new album hasn't happened because of both political and artistic issues.

Oh, I definitely don't hate her. I rather like her actually - she seems like a decent sort, and I do like her Mac stuff up to and including Mirage. After that, not so much, and her solo stuff I find a bit patchy. I do understand the fascination with her (I had expert help :D) even though I don't join in.

I think new members were brought in for different reasons in the early 70s - generally non-musical reasons. I don't know if Bekka was supposed to be a direct Stevie-replacement - after all, the only thing they had in common was that they were both blonde and cute. It was a bad idea to have her sing Stevie's songs - I don't really see the point in that. But at that time, Chris wasn't there, and maybe it seemed odd not to have any girls in the band. I'd say that it was more cock-up than conspiracy - it sounds like a risky idea that didn't work on the grounds that it wasn't popular with the existing fans. It worked musically as a standalone thing, but yes, Mac had gone too far along the Rumours road for anything else to really catch on. So that's why Mac are where they are. Incidentally, they have all but dismissed the '70-'74 incarnations as well - I'd say because there's no money in it.

If the Behind The Mask and Time lineups were so progressive, unique, or even great, why didn't they last? Because the fans wanted Stevie, Lindsey, and Christine, hence The Dance's success. No matter what anyone says, without Stevie, there is no Fleetwood Mac. In the real world, outside of The Ledge, and outside of hardcore fans, the only song that people will always know is Landslide. Then you have some people that know Dreams, Gold Dust Woman, and Go Your Own Way. Then you have even less people that know Don't Stop and maybe Gypsy or Hold Me. I know this because at my job, Gypsy or Don't Stop will play and I'm all "omg!!!" and they give me blank stares. I say "Fleetwood Mac?", and their response is "Oh..". I am in no way saying that Stevie is the most important, most talented, or most anything other than that she has become Fleetwood Mac.

Also, I would say Oh Well is much more tired than Rumours.

i kinda liked btm and time, i liked christines song, nights in estoril!