Which Members in Rock HOF?

[Madelow]

Hello All-- In the discussion thread "Breakdown of 'Kiln House', Snoot has a post that says that Danny Kirwan was included in the FM Hall lineup? Is that true? If so, why aren't all the "pre-'Rumours' members included? Peter Green's omission is stupid, imho. Best always, Madelow.

[snoot]

See here for more Madelow.

http://www.rockhall.com/inductee/fleetwood-mac

[snoot]

If Peter were ever to have been omitted, it would be about the only thing that could top Bob Welch's de facto omission, as there never would have been a Fleetwood Mac to begin with without Green, or the B&N Mac unit and glory without Welch.*

You might want to revisit that Kiln House thread again, especially as page 2 rolls into page 3, as quite a bit of ground is covered in that discussion that touches on some of these things (about halfway down, starting with a PS by yours truly):

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showth...t=15567&page=2

But in a nutshell, suffice to say Mick pulled a copout!

* Edit PS :: Note Street Dreamer's comment regarding BW below

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by Madelow

Hello All-- In the discussion thread "Breakdown of 'Kiln House', Snoot has a post that says that Danny Kirwan was included in the FM Hall lineup? Is that true? If so, why aren't all the "pre-'Rumours' members included? Peter Green's omission is stupid, imho. Best always, Madelow.

Pretty much you don't want to talk about the HOF as it makes some of us cry...

Eight in, eight forgotten. Anyone remember Bob Welch or Billy Burnette here?

[Street_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Pretty much you don't want to talk about the HOF as it makes some of us cry...

Eight in, eight forgotten. Anyone remember Bob Welch or Billy Burnette here?

Yeah, it kind of sucks for the guy who Mick himself said "saved Fleetwood Mac" isn't in the hall of fame. I could take Billy, Rick, Bekka and Dave M. not being in, but Welch, Weston and even Walker should have been in too.

Matt

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by Street_Dreamer

Yeah, it kind of sucks for the guy who Mick himself said "saved Fleetwood Mac" isn't in the hall of fame. I could take Billy, Rick, Bekka and Dave M. not being in, but Welch, Weston and even Walker should have been in too.

Matt

Don't you like Bob Brunning?

[snoot]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Don't you like Bob Brunning?

What was it, 2 to 4 weeks on a strictly temp basis? Hard to say yea or nay, but a lapse like that alone could be overlooked I suppose. Beyond that, it pretty much pales, and moves into unforgiven territory.

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by snoot

What was it, 2 to 4 weeks on a strictly temp basis? Hard to say yea or nay, but a lapse like that alone could be overlooked I suppose. Beyond that, it pretty much pales, and moves into unforgiven territory.

Although if McVie had decided to stay with Mayall then it may not have been a temporary basis.

Anyway, a member is a member - he was in the band, and if he is to be believed he did uncredited bass parts when McVie was too drunk anyway...

[Wouter Vuijk]

Originally Posted by snoot

What was it, 2 to 4 weeks on a strictly temp basis? Hard to say yea or nay, but a lapse like that alone could be overlooked I suppose. Beyond that, it pretty much pales, and moves into unforgiven territory.

2 or 4 weeks? What the heck. At least he played their debut gig! Where John didn't want to leave the "steady bucks rolling in" with John Mayall. On the HOF it is mentioned that Peter, Mick and John started FM, accompanied by Jeremy. Bull! It was Peter, Mick and Jeremy, with Bob after auditioning on bass, knowing that he would be probably be replaced by John.

[Madelow]

Dear Snoot & All-- Thanks for all the great responses! Boy, do I feel stupid. For as long as I've loved the band, I've always assumed the Hall only counted the "Rumours" quintet. It's great to know that Peter, Jeremy, and Danny were included! Although I started my FM experiences with the White & Rumours albums, (as Christmas presents), I've come to appreciate their past as well. Bob Welch is now a favorite, and "Hypnotized" is in my top five Mac songs. Thanks for helping with my Rock Hall and FM education. Best wishes, Madelow.

[aleuzzi]

There have been umpteen threads on why he wasn't inducted...

In brief: he was involved in a lawsuit with Mick, John, and Chris at the time. So, the most common explanation is that the trio kept him from getting it. However, the RRHOF committee spokesperson at the time said some crap like "Bob Welch's contributions were not RRHOF calibre." A horsecrap answer for an ultimately awful omission.

[Street_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

There have been umpteen threads on why he wasn't inducted...

In brief: he was involved in a lawsuit with Mick, John, and Chris at the time. So, the most common explanation is that the trio kept him from getting it. However, the RRHOF committee spokesperson at the time said some crap like "Bob Welch's contributions were not RRHOF calibre." A horsecrap answer for an ultimately awful omission.

ChiliD has mentioned this in other places before, but I completely agree with it; Mick should have made it a point that ALL of the members of the band be included in the hall of fame or they would decline the invitation. But of course...

Matt

[SteveMacD]

I could see Bob Brunning, Dave Walker, Bob Weston, Bekka Bramlett, and Dave Mason being excluded. Their overall impact on the band wasn't that great. Weston's was, but not necessarily as a musician, and I'm not sure that's a reason to be included.

Bob Welch was a gimme. Billy Burnette and Rick Vito were in actuality part of the second most successful incarnation of Fleetwood Mac, at least in terms of concert ticket sales and album sales, so they're gimmes, too.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

I could see Bob Brunning, Dave Walker, Bob Weston, Bekka Bramlett, and Dave Mason being excluded. Their overall impact on the band wasn't that great. Weston's was, but not necessarily as a musician, and I'm not sure that's a reason to be included.

Strictly in terms of overall impact, I would agree with you. But how much should that matter really? Of that group, I'd say Weston is the trickiest, since he clearly helped take Mystery To Me over the top, and in some ways helped distance it - at least in terms of reach and sophistication - from Penguin (where he was somewhat under-utilized) and Heroes (where he was missing). Other than Welch and Christy working like never before on MTM, I do believe it was Westy who added some very critical fills and accents that helped make that release shine distinctly brighter. Those three were getting in an interesting and tight groove by that point. Weston's only real weakness was in the songwriting department. Still, if he had been around during HAHTF, he may have added the missing element that would have kept Bob Welch in the game longer. [the Mac game]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Billy Burnette and Rick Vito were in actuality part of the second most successful incarnation of Fleetwood Mac, at least in terms of concert ticket sales and album sales, so they're gimmes, too.

But that's a largely circumstantial yardstick as I see it. Their legacy will for the most part be judged on the quality and freshness of the respective project releases, and there they take a back seat to the Kirwan and Welch led affairs imo. In fact, pretty clearly. I'd go so far as to say the BTM album and ticket sales deride largely on the B&N constituted (aka Rumours) "shadow" that many long time fans were tuning in for during that time, to see how and where things stood and sounded now that one of the principals went MIA. That all-encompassing aura superseded just about everything back then. By the Time release, pretty much any novelty and surprise factor had been erased, and that production didn't even chart. One only has to look at the kind of sales FM got when Lindsey and Stevie were a tandem in the fold again in '97. They went right back to #1.

OTOH, beyond the "curiosity" factor, many fans of the day WERE turned off knowing B&N tag team had fractured, so the Vito and Burnette infused units certainly had an uphill battle on their hands right from the get-go. Thus there are different ways one could view their impact and standing, and at least that much makes for a fair debate. But it doesn't change the fact that eight were unwarrantly dissed.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by Madelow

Dear Snoot & All-- Thanks for all the great responses! Boy, do I feel stupid.

Don't feel stupid at all Madelow. The only one who should feel stupid is Mick Fleetwood for letting this happen. But you know the saying, you can't fool all the people all the time. Just look at how many hip responses you received from forum members who know the true score. Just like Aleuzzi and Matt have stated, there have been members going back for years at the Ledge who have been decrying this situation, their heads spinning in disbelief.

How ANYONE could view those middle era releases, and by extension the personnel behind them, as being second class Mac productions is beyond me. The Kirwan and Welch led incantations of the band produced some of the Mac's most consistent releases when viewed cover to cover! Naturally it goes without saying that the slight to Bob Welch is the most glaring of all, one thing I think we all agree on. Hypnotized, if nothing else, should be added to those "essential songs." Bump Tusk and get it in there!

Mick you damn fool, what WERE you thinking?