Boston Tea Party as two LPs?

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by Wouter Vuijk

Bass guitar solos, that is.
On the oher hand, it's not just that part that really gets me. I'm always much touched by ther way the song is built up. It has some 'mystical' aura. Not just the chord progression, but the complete arrangement of laid back - furious - breaks at the right moment, the melody of the lyrics with the notes very close to another, etc. SHIVERING

I have to admit, though, that I really prefer Bob Welch's 1974 live versions of this song, especially the way they end it.

[sharksfan2000]

Originally Posted by mzero

for me, 'jumping at shadows' is as good as pete w/fm ever got. it has the passion, the economy, the empty space. that combination is what gets it everytime.

the devils been gettin at me, indeed! i play 'jumping' 20 times for everytime i make it all the way through the live version of gm .

Same here, mzero. I love the Boston recordings of "Jumping At Shadows" - Peter makes this song his own here, very emotional singing and playing. And while I think the studio version of "Green Manalishi" is one of Peter's masterpieces, and his guitar work toward the end of that track is among the most brilliant things he ever recorded, I also think the live version is Fleetwood Mac's version of "Toad" - their most (OK, Peter's most) self-indulgent recording ever. All the tautness, the tension of the studio version is lost, and the long bass and conga solos are BORING!

IMHO, there are only a handful of tracks that this edition of the band did better in the studio than live, and this is one of them ("Oh Well" is another). Sorry if I'm being the heretic here, but I'll take the studio "Green Manalishi" over this live version any day.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by sharksfan2000

All the tautness, the tension of the studio version is lost, and the long bass and conga solos are BORING!

Yeah, as "boring" as the Allman Bros Band's Live At The Fillmore album...or as boring as Cream's live version of "Spoonful", or side 2 of Miles Davis' Bitches Brew album. Meaning: NOT BORING. (to me, anyway)

[BklynBlue]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Yeah, as "boring" as the Allman Bros Band's Live At The Fillmore album...or as boring as Cream's live version of "Spoonful", or side 2 of Miles Davis' Bitches Brew album. Meaning: NOT BORING. (to me, anyway)

Interesting that you make your case for the ability of an extended jam to still hold ones interest on a jazz ensemble featuring players schooled in "rock", a rock trio with a rhythm section schooled in jazz, and one of the most improvisational groups in rock.
The musical sensibilities of the players in these bands are built off of a sense of interplay and interaction,which is the exact antithesis of the band dynamic of Fleetwood Mac.
Fleetwood Mac as a group, and especially the rhythm section rarely achieved the type of transcendence these musicians were capable of. That is not a knock. Few can.
Yes, there are live recordings, mainly on bootlegs, where the magic occurs and it is thrilling to hear - and most times, for me, it is on the slower, more open numbers, those that require little from the drummer, rather than the heavier tunes like "Green Manalishi".

[chiliD]

Pretty much from the first time I heard the Yardbirds stretched out jam on "I'm A Man" at the age of 10 (mainly due to my not being exposed to the wonders of jazz improvisational exploration yet), I've been hooked on extended rock jams that border on "jazz" (Cream, Allmans, Grateful Dead, Little Feat, etc); and later on extended jazz jams that bordered on rock (Miles Davis, Weather Report, Return To Forever, etc). Never seem to tire of them. Even the Greeny-era Fleetwood Mac got me with the extended live "Rattlesnake Shake/Madge/Underway" arrangements, the extended jamming at the end of "Black Magic Woman", and the long "Green Manalishi" with Peter's six-string bass solo. (and later hearing the full "Madge Sessions" jams)

I'm actually surprised that somewhere in the first couple of years after Peter leaving FMac, that he DIDN'T hook up with either Jack Bruce or Ginger Baker (or both), being that Peter was, during those days, heavily into the free-form jamming type thing (witness via "End Of The Game")...oh, what would a "Green Cream" have sounded like?

[BklynBlue]

"Green Cream" - That's great!
Green (circa '69 - '71) doing Bruce's "Theme From An Imaginary Western" would have been just amazing, a perfect vehicle for him.
For all the advantages that working exclusively with Mike Vernon, and the Blue Horizon stable of players had, it probably would have been to everyone's advantage had they expanded their sound a bit with other players.
I always wondered what the band might have sounded like had they gotten the chance to work with producer Tom Dowd?
Listening to the work that he did on the original release of the Allman's "At the Fillmore" - you would never believe that many of those performances were "assembled", some trimmed for time constraints and other times mixed from different nights.
What could he have done had he been behind the board and allowed to put together the Tea Party tapes?
Imagine if the "Then Play On" sessions had been recorded in the Atlantic studios in NY, or the Criteria in Miami. "Underway" and more importantly, "The Madge sessions", would probably have the sonic sweep and majesty of his work on "Layla" (another classic bit of "cutting and splicing"!)
If you ever see a listing for the documentary "Tom Dowd and the Language of Music" in your cable guide, try and get the chance to see it. It is also available on DVD. It is a fascinating portrait of an amazing man.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by BklynBlue

"Green Cream" - That's great!
Green (circa '69 - '71) doing Bruce's "Theme From An Imaginary Western" would have been just amazing, a perfect vehicle for him.
For all the advantages that working exclusively with Mike Vernon, and the Blue Horizon stable of players had, it probably would have been to everyone's advantage had they expanded their sound a bit with other players.
I always wondered what the band might have sounded like had they gotten the chance to work with producer Tom Dowd?
Listening to the work that he did on the original release of the Allman's "At the Fillmore" - you would never believe that many of those performances were "assembled", some trimmed for time constraints and other times mixed from different nights.
What could he have done had he been behind the board and allowed to put together the Tea Party tapes?
Imagine if the "Then Play On" sessions had been recorded in the Atlantic studios in NY, or the Criteria in Miami. "Underway" and more importantly, "The Madge sessions", would probably have the sonic sweep and majesty of his work on "Layla" (another classic bit of "cutting and splicing"!)
If you ever see a listing for the documentary "Tom Dowd and the Language of Music" in your cable guide, try and get the chance to see it. It is also available on DVD. It is a fascinating portrait of an amazing man.

As much as I love Jack's own version of "Theme...", I still consider (don't laugh) Mountain's version to be the definitive one. Felix Pappalardi's vocals & Leslie West's guitar fills just make the song for me.

I've seen the Dowd documentary a number of times...always try to catch it when I see it listed. (the Trio channel seems to run it for a weekend at least every other month or so) If he were involved, he would've been the one actually RECORDING the band, so the Tea Party may not have been the venue that would've been recorded...most likely would've been the Fillmore East, as well.

I also have wondered how different things might've been for Fleetwood Mac had they signed with Apple rather than Reprise. Imagine the Then Play On sessions with Lennon, McCartney or Harrison dropping in to twist a knob or jam a bit...and Ringo walking in & playing some percussion or drums while Mick plays congas or something.

[sharksfan2000]

Wow, this thread is getting really interesting. On listening to the Tea Party version of "Green Manalishi" again, I suppose it's not that "boring", just not nearly as interesting to me as the other live tracks. (And chiliD, I was really just trying to provoke some sprited discussion - I knew I'd catch your attention on this! )

I love the "Rattlesnake Shake/Madge/Underway" jams, but they're group jams, not extended solos. And I still don't feel that Peter's soloing really goes anywhere on "Green Manalishi". I think BklynBlue makes a good point in stating that Fleetwood & McVie were not great at improvisational jamming - that was just not their strength - so Peter may have felt their limitations pushed him toward doing that kind of solo to make the music he wanted to within the group format.

Green, Bruce, & Baker - that would have been great to hear! That lineup might have had the potential to do even greater (though obviously different) things than they did with Clapton. Those three might still be able to make some really interesting music if they played together now.

[BklynBlue]

[QUOTE=chiliD]As much as I love Jack's own version of "Theme...", I still consider (don't laugh) Mountain's version to be the definitive one. Felix Pappalardi's vocals & Leslie West's guitar fills just make the song for me.

You won't get a so much as a smirk out of me - I agree 100%!

Sharksfan2000: "Those three might still be able to make some really interesting music if they played together now".

Again, I agree - I think at this point in time the combination would actually play to their strengths and weaknesses.
Taking the vocal chores off of Green, as well as providing strong support for his more restrained playing.
I think "Black Magic Woman" with Bruce taking the lead vocal could be real interesting. Especially with Baker on percussion.
With Bruce and Baker, Green might even consider exploring numbers like "Slabo Day", "Tribal Dance" or "Little Dreamer".
A little more difficult for Green to do the Cream numbers too closely associated with Clapton...
Maybe the some of the straight blues, like "From Four Until Late", or "Sitting On Top Of the World". Maybe let Green do the harp work on "Cat's Squirrel" or the lead vocal on "We're Going Wrong".
Looking forward to other suggestions

[dino]

[QUOTE=BklynBlue]

Originally Posted by chiliD

As much as I love Jack's own version of "Theme...", I still consider (don't laugh) Mountain's version to be the definitive one. Felix Pappalardi's vocals & Leslie West's guitar fills just make the song for me.

You won't get a so much as a smirk out of me - I agree 100%!

Sharksfan2000: "Those three might still be able to make some really interesting music if they played together now".

Again, I agree - I think at this point in time the combination would actually play to their strengths and weaknesses.
Taking the vocal chores off of Green, as well as providing strong support for his more restrained playing.
I think "Black Magic Woman" with Bruce taking the lead vocal could be real interesting. Especially with Baker on percussion.
With Bruce and Baker, Green might even consider exploring numbers like "Slabo Day", "Tribal Dance" or "Little Dreamer".
A little more difficult for Green to do the Cream numbers too closely associated with Clapton...
Maybe the some of the straight blues, like "From Four Until Late", or "Sitting On Top Of the World". Maybe let Green do the harp work on "Cat's Squirrel" or the lead vocal on "We're Going Wrong".
Looking forward to other suggestions

I have to defend the live Manalishi, I feel. I love it, including bass solos. I can understand that music fans who are not familiar/doesn't like extended improvisation would have a problem with that kind of playing. As a major jazz/Miles Davis fan I love it (Bitches brew!!!!!). But not many players have the talent for making long improvisations interesting.
I can't listen to Cream's old live recordings, they definitely crossed the line...not much melodic development, just riffing away for 30 mintutes in MY opinion...But I feel Peter could do that successfully, he had so many musical ideas and was a way more melodic player then Clapton (who's amazing in shorter solos). Off course after a while you want to hear old Mac (pre-mid '69).

Cream with Peter sounds cool...will never happen ! Don't think Peter's style is to their taste really, Jack used to have John McLaughlin in his band (he's great), aka 15 notes per second...

[sharksfan2000]

Originally Posted by dino

I have to defend the live Manalishi, I feel. I love it, including bass solos. I can understand that music fans who are not familiar/doesn't like extended improvisation would have a problem with that kind of playing. As a major jazz/Miles Davis fan I love it (Bitches brew!!!!!). But not many players have the talent for making long improvisations interesting.

I like jazz a lot, listen to it often, and love inspired improvisational playing, including solo playing. And there's little question that Peter Green was capable of some brilliant improvisational playing, which unfortunately was not the strength of the rest of the band. So that's not an issue with my feeling about his bass and conga solos in the live version of "Green Manalishi". I just don't feel that they're anywhere near his best work.

I'm certainly willing to give music I'm not that fond of another chance, so I gave "Green Manalishi" yet another listen today. I think the bass solo is ok, it's not the most interesting bass playing I've heard by a long shot but the solo is not overly long and it's not bad. But the bass is just not as expressive an instrument in Peter Green's hands as his guitar. I don't think his skills as a bass player were in the same league as a Jack Bruce or a Jack Casady though (to name just a couple of contemporary bassists who could produce some exceptionally expressive playing), so I'm still not sure what the point was of this extended solo. But if he'd kept it to just the bass solo, I think the song would have still been fine, though still not my favorite of their live work.

It's the conga solo that absolutely kills it for me though - a total waste of time as far as I'm concerned, and complete self-indulgence. Without the conga solo, I think this live "Green Manalishi" would have still have been reasonably focused and very listenable. But with it......sorry, but it "crosses the line" to use dino's term.

Extended improvisational playing is tough to do, in jazz, rock, or whatever. And by its very nature, it's not going to be outstanding music every time. That's one of the thrilling things about watching / listening to great improvisational players - the music can be mediocre one night and pure genius the next. Some of Peter Green's live recordings certainlly fall into the "pure genius" category for me, but "Green Manalishi" isn't one of them. But if it is "pure genius" to you, I've got no argument with that - music affects us all differently, so we may just have to agree to disagree about this one.

[dino]

Originally Posted by sharksfan2000

I like jazz a lot, listen to it often, and love inspired improvisational playing, including solo playing. And there's little question that Peter Green was capable of some brilliant improvisational playing, which unfortunately was not the strength of the rest of the band. So that's not an issue with my feeling about his bass and conga solos in the live version of "Green Manalishi". I just don't feel that they're anywhere near his best work.

I'm certainly willing to give music I'm not that fond of another chance, so I gave "Green Manalishi" yet another listen today. I think the bass solo is ok, it's not the most interesting bass playing I've heard by a long shot but the solo is not overly long and it's not bad. But the bass is just not as expressive an instrument in Peter Green's hands as his guitar. I don't think his skills as a bass player were in the same league as a Jack Bruce or a Jack Casady though (to name just a couple of contemporary bassists who could produce some exceptionally expressive playing), so I'm still not sure what the point was of this extended solo. But if he'd kept it to just the bass solo, I think the song would have still been fine, though still not my favorite of their live work.

It's the conga solo that absolutely kills it for me though - a total waste of time as far as I'm concerned, and complete self-indulgence. Without the conga solo, I think this live "Green Manalishi" would have still have been reasonably focused and very listenable. But with it......sorry, but it "crosses the line" to use dino's term.

Extended improvisational playing is tough to do, in jazz, rock, or whatever. And by its very nature, it's not going to be outstanding music every time. That's one of the thrilling things about watching / listening to great improvisational players - the music can be mediocre one night and pure genius the next. Some of Peter Green's live recordings certainlly fall into the "pure genius" category for me, but "Green Manalishi" isn't one of them. But if it is "pure genius" to you, I've got no argument with that - music affects us all differently, so we may just have to agree to disagree about this one.

Nah, I agree with you! It's not Peter at his absolute best, that's "Jumping at shadows"...but Manalishi is still head and shoulders above much other "jamming" of the era by other bands.
Good point, too, that the rest of Mac weren't really great at improvising, or wanted to. As we all know that was a major factor in Green leaving Mac. If he had not gotten ill, who knows what he would have accomplished in this looser type of music.