Federal court upholds Illinois law banning horse slaughter

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Nixxxed

^ That's exactly how they slaughter and process cows, except they also strip off the hide while the bodily fluids are draining.

Barf. Like I said earlier. It's not that I want cows to be slaughtered, but that industry isn't going away any time soon. At least the practice of doing it to horses is leaving this country.

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by Sarah

Barf. Like I said earlier. It's not that I want cows to be slaughtered, but that industry isn't going away any time soon. At least the practice of doing it to horses is leaving this country.

Which makes me wonder if there are any similar regulations regarding the methods for slaughter in Canada and Mexico.

Edit:

I have another question. In an earlier post (in fact, the same one where you mention the raising of horses for slaughter) you said this in regards to the use of horse meat to feed zoo animals: "i would have thought they'd find more natural ways to feed than to patronize a horse slaughterhouse. but, true, a lot of zoos aren't exactly the epitome of animal wellfare. of course, there are some very conscientious zoos and handlers out there, but there are also plenty of low budget animal showcases."

For the record, I'm against the holding of wild animals in captivity, but that's a different subject entirely. However, I wanted to ask what sort of "more natural ways to feed" do you suggest? Should the zoos import bushmeat to feed their animals? That would obviously be the most natural way of feeding, but somehow I think that would meet quite a bit of opposition - most importantly because it's illegal. Perhaps they should harvest deer and other fauna native to the states? But then, how would that be any more natural than horse meat? Or do you suggest they switch to cow meat, pig meat, chickens, etc.? Which then, of course, begs the question: Just how natural are those options?

I am genuinely curious to know your answer.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky

Which makes me wonder if there are any similar regulations regarding the methods for slaughter in Canada and Mexico.

Edit:

I have another question. In an earlier post (in fact, the same one where you mention the raising of horses for slaughter) you said this in regards to the use of horse meat to feed zoo animals: "i would have thought they'd find more natural ways to feed than to patronize a horse slaughterhouse. but, true, a lot of zoos aren't exactly the epitome of animal wellfare. of course, there are some very conscientious zoos and handlers out there, but there are also plenty of low budget animal showcases."

For the record, I'm against the holding of wild animals in captivity, but that's a different subject entirely. However, I wanted to ask what sort of "more natural ways to feed" do you suggest? Should the zoos import bushmeat to feed their animals? That would obviously be the most natural way of feeding, but somehow I think that would meet quite a bit of opposition - most importantly because it's illegal. Perhaps they should harvest deer and other fauna native to the states? But then, how would that be any more natural than horse meat? Or do you suggest they switch to cow meat, pig meat, chickens, etc.? Which then, of course, begs the question: Just how natural are those options?

I am genuinely curious to know your answer.

I also am against wild animals in captivity, except for the sake of trying to increase the population of an endangered species.

Honestly though, if "they" want to try to recreate an animal's natural habitat, it seems to me that allowing it to hunt (within its confined space ) at feeding time would be the most "natural" (that really is for lack of better term) way to do it. The animal should be fed whatever it would eat in the wild - in its native area - but it's not exactly feasible to load up the lion's cage with zebras and gazelles, I suppose. It's a difficult subject all around I think. My bottom line was that.. with a process as cruel as the slaughter house is.. I would have thought that zoos, which supposedly pride themselves on their care of animals, would come up with something better. I don't claim to know the answers, dude.. I'm just saying. Even if they have to use horsemeat, it seems like they could come up with something better than buying it from a place that kills 1000s a week to ship overseas and ****.

It's just gross.

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by Sarah

I would have thought that zoos, which supposedly pride themselves on their care of animals, would come up with something better. I don't claim to know the answers, dude.. I'm just saying. Even if they have to use horsemeat, it seems like they could come up with something better than buying it from a place that kills 1000s a week to ship overseas and ****.

It's just gross.

Frankly, I'm a bit shocked that you would suggest locking prey animals in the enclosure with the predators where they would have no chance to escape, surely you cannot consider that either natural or ethical. Besides, zoos would never be able to get away with that. Public outcry over such a practice would no doubt be overwhelming.

In any case, there doesn't seem to be a practical way to humanely kill large animals for the purposes of consumption - whether they're killed in the thousands or in smaller numbers. Unless I am overlooking a possibility, humane killing can really only be achieved with chemical methods. Unfortunately, those same chemicals make the meat unfit for consumption by man or animal.

I know that you don't have the answers, neither do I, but it seems futile to me to say that people must change their ways when you can't provide them with a better alternative.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky

Frankly, I'm a bit shocked that you would suggest locking prey animals in the enclosure with the predators where they would have no chance to escape, surely you cannot consider that either natural or ethical. Besides, zoos would never be able to get away with that. Public outcry over such a practice would no doubt be overwhelming.

In any case, there doesn't seem to be a practical way to humanely kill large animals for the purposes of consumption - whether they're killed in the thousands or in smaller numbers. Unless I am overlooking a possibility, humane killing can really only be achieved with chemical methods. Unfortunately, those same chemicals make the meat unfit for consumption by man or animal.

I know that you don't have the answers, neither do I, but it seems futile to me to say that people must change their ways when you can't provide them with a better alternative.

Okay, well, I'm a damn moron and I'm sorry I said anything at all. Jesus. Is that what you want? I'll say it just to end this stupid-ass debate. Slaughtering horses is nasty. The end.

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by Sarah

Okay, well, I'm a damn moron and I'm sorry I said anything at all. Jesus. Is that what you want? I'll say it just to end this stupid-ass debate. Slaughtering horses is nasty. The end.

Stupid-ass debate?

What I want is for you to use logic in your reasoning. One of the big reasons why the animal rights movement is seen as a joke by so many people is because so many of its supporters base their arguments on emotions alone and a) don't back up their claims with factual evidence and b) preach to people about wrong doing while failing to provide them with the tools to do right.

I agree that slaughtering horses is nasty. I've said that already. There's no argument there. I only question the reasoning behind your statements and ask for clarification.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky

Stupid-ass debate?

What I want is for you to use logic in your reasoning. One of the big reasons why the animal rights movement is seen as a joke by so many people is because so many of its supporters base their arguments on emotions alone and a) don't back up their claims with factual evidence and b) preach to people about wrong doing while failing to provide them with the tools to do right.

I agree that slaughtering horses is nasty. I've said that already. There's no argument there. I only question the reasoning behind your statements and ask for clarification.

No hon. I definitely base my opinions and viewpoints on my emotions. There are great thinkers out there who can come up with the solutions. I'm not one of them. It hurts me to see the nasty things people do to animals... it hurts me very deeply. But I don't have the tools or resources to give what it would take to help them make their changes, other than my beliefs that what they're doing is wrong and my ability to sign a petition or donate whatever few dollars I may have to spare. I know you agree that their slaughter is nasty. I'm not debating that with you at all. I just think you're asking a bit much for everyone who cares about what happens to them to be able to provide some huge solution. If that was possible, there wouldn't be any problems worldwide.

I read one of your views in another thread.. I don't remember where or exactly what it was that you'd said.. about counting every animal as equal, so the slaughter or eating of horses, dogs, cows, chickens, pigs, whatever, is all the same to you. I understand where you're coming from with that, but I guess I can't say that I feel the same way. I do value certain animals more than certain others. Not just domesticated vs. non.. and I do have love for all of them and appreciate their unique ways and beauty.. but I suppose it twists my heart just a bit more for a horse, dog, cat, frog, whatever.. being used for food more so than it does when a cow, pig, or chicken is. You are obviously the superior animal rights activist... but that doesn't mean I don't care about them.

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by Sarah

I just think you're asking a bit much for everyone who cares about what happens to them to be able to provide some huge solution.

I don't expect everyone who cares to provide an answer. I just hope that people will at least take the time to look for one.

And while I, too, don't have an answer for a way to stop the slaughter, I think there are ways to improve the situation. Just as you have stated that the slaughter of cattle won't stop anytime soon, I don't think that the slaughter of horses will either. Proponents of horse slaughter argue that it is a necessary means of population control, that there simply aren't enough homes for these horses. Opponents of the practice claim that this isn't true. But regarding this particular point, I have to side with the "enemy." If the statistics provided in that article are accurate, that this one slaughterhouse alone kills about 1,000 horses a week, that equates to approximately 52,000 horses a year - to say nothing of the countless horses being shipped across the borders to their deaths. I just can't see how there could possibly be enough homes for them. That being said, I think the only way to make a difference is through reform, not only of the meat industry but also of the practices that produce this surplus of animals. I think tighter regulations need to be made regarding the care and transport of horses - and, indeed, any animal - bound for slaughter. I think there needs to be a bigger effort to educate the public about Premarin production and to put a stop to the cruelties associated with the horseracing industry. Closing down this last slaughterhouse isn't going to stop the killing, it's only going to move more of it elsewhere. But I guess to those who don't look at the bigger picture, this out-of-sight-out-of-mind resolution is good enough.

[irishgrl]

Vicky, I just LOVE you. Yes I Do.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky

I don't expect everyone who cares to provide an answer. I just hope that people will at least take the time to look for one.

And while I, too, don't have an answer for a way to stop the slaughter, I think there are ways to improve the situation. Just as you have stated that the slaughter of cattle won't stop anytime soon, I don't think that the slaughter of horses will either. Proponents of horse slaughter argue that it is a necessary means of population control, that there simply aren't enough homes for these horses. Opponents of the practice claim that this isn't true. But regarding this particular point, I have to side with the "enemy." If the statistics provided in that article are accurate, that this one slaughterhouse alone kills about 1,000 horses a week, that equates to approximately 52,000 horses a year - to say nothing of the countless horses being shipped across the borders to their deaths. I just can't see how there could possibly be enough homes for them. That being said, I think the only way to make a difference is through reform, not only of the meat industry but also of the practices that produce this surplus of animals. I think tighter regulations need to be made regarding the care and transport of horses - and, indeed, any animal - bound for slaughter. I think there needs to be a bigger effort to educate the public about Premarin production and to put a stop to the cruelties associated with the horseracing industry. Closing down this last slaughterhouse isn't going to stop the killing, it's only going to move more of it elsewhere. But I guess to those who don't look at the bigger picture, this out-of-sight-out-of-mind resolution is good enough.

I understand what you're saying. And honestly, I appreciate your stance. If we were discussing this in a more "official" setting, really, I'd have not said anything from the start. My initial posts were from an assumption that there were some horses being raised just for slaughter. Your sources have shown that that may not be true, and I am GLAD glad glad about that. I would have never imagined, though, that there would be 1000+ unwanted byproducts/ill/etc available per week. That number is staggering.

This is a very good point you've made. It does seem that it'd be impossible to find homes for 52,000+ lame, ill, and otherwise unwanted horses. I guess to some it could be an out-of-sight, out-of-mind resolution to just shutting it down in America.. but I am an American, so I can have an opinion about what goes on here. I don't like a lot of things that go on in other parts of the world, but my opinion there doesn't really matter and I have no say so (particularly when the rest of the world pretty much hates us, huh). The best I can hope for is that they'd follow suit. This really is a double edged sword... it's a nasty death or a slow suffering death from their illnesses, unless someone would be willing to provide the necessary euthanasia in a cost-effective way.

[danax6]

Some info in case anyone is interested: Horses in Europe aren't raised for slaughter, most of the horse meat gets imported from America (with Argentina being the biggest supplier). Only horses that are no longer economically profitable go to the slaughterhouse. The consuming of horse meat in Europe is really only not-done in the UK. The Netherlands used to have a few slaughterhouses specialized in horses, which were different from the regular slaughterhouses, but most have ceased to exist. In fact, they are slowly ceasing to exist throughout entire Western Europe.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by danax6

Some info in case anyone is interested: Horses in Europe aren't raised for slaughter, most of the horse meat gets imported from America (with Argentina being the biggest supplier). Only horses that are no longer economically profitable go to the slaughterhouse. The consuming of horse meat in Europe is really only not-done in the UK. The Netherlands used to have a few slaughterhouses specialized in horses, which were different from the regular slaughterhouses, but most have ceased to exist. In fact, they are slowly ceasing to exist throughout entire Western Europe.

Thanks for sharing that, Vanessa. Do you think it's because people are losing the taste for eating horsemeat or for other (economic? sociopolitical?) reasons?

[danax6]

Originally Posted by Sarah

Thanks for sharing that, Vanessa. Do you think it's because people are losing the taste for eating horsemeat or for other (economic? sociopolitical?) reasons?

Probably a combination of factors, but I think it's mainly because of sociopolitical reasons. The fact that it's illegal in the US and just not-done in the UK is slowly starting to rub off on at least this part of the world and subconsciously I guess people are losing their taste for it.

[Miss Vicky]

^Well, demand for horse meat may be waning a bit, but it's definitely still there. I was just reading an article (Link) that was written in 2005 and updated last year that mentioned a Polish slaughterhouse that sells most of its meat to Italy and Japan - a country not known for its concern over animal wellfare, or even the protection of endangered species. It also states that there are "horse abattoirs and butcheries in Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Poland, Romania, Russia, Spain and Switzerland," I'm sure those who deal in American horse meat will have no trouble finding buyers.

One thing this article mentioned that I found interesting is that "horse connoisseurs" prefer the meat of Quarterhorses and Thoroughbreds, the two most popular breeds in America.