An Alternative Fleetwood Mac

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by slipkid

For some reason I can't wrap my head around being bigger than Zeppelin, they were pretty big. I certainly could see them on equal footing. If Peter could've lived in the limelight just five to ten more years, he would've been the household name the other guitarists of his generation have become.

Fleetwood Mac was outselling both Beatles & Stones COMBINED in the UK, they were just making their mark in the "hip" US circuit (the East & West Fillmores, The Wherehouse in N.O., etc), opening for both the GD & ABB. Peter was jamming with Duane & Jerry through those times, as well (as you mention below). Zeppelin was pretty much at the same "fame level" as Fleetwood Mac in '70 (they might've had a head start on the US market, granted, but not by much)...they didn't really go ballistic until the Beatles broke up and Peter Green left Fleetwood Mac...their 4th album, released in late '71 took them to that pinnacle. Had Peter stuck around, FMac would've most likely been the "king of the hill" keeping Zep off that (misty) mountain top.

Originally Posted by slipkid

As for the jam bands, I'm not saying they would've been better than the Allmans, just different. Today you have two jam band schools: The Grateful Dead, and the Allman Brothers Band. Had FM continued as it was in early 1970, I think you would've had three schools because they brought a British influence to their sound. Too many new jam bands sound the same. Another father of the genre would've created more ideas. If those bad sound recordings from 2-3/1971 are any proof, Peter Green was on another planet in the jam world. They could've been special.

Sure, there's the live "Rattlesnake Shakes" & "Green Manalishis" that go on forever with Peter stretching them out....but contrary to bands like the GD & ABB, Mick & John stuck to a groove and didn't vary from that unless Peter forced the issue...listen to Barry, Butch & Jaimoe (ABB) and Phil, Bill & Mickey (GD)...they're out there forging their own territory while Jerry, or Duane & Dickey are off doing their thing floating on the rhythm section's foundation..sometimes the rhythm section even set up the signposts for Jerry or Duane to follow. For Peter, he had the band on his back doing all the heavy lifting...Danny was an occasional "rest stop", but even as great as Mick & John are together, Peter still needed more from the rhythm section. Unless things would've changed drastically, I don't really think Fleetwood Mac ever would've attained "Jam band" status on a GD/ABB level, even had Peter stayed. If you want the "British Jam Band" school...think CREAM. They were basically the first "jam band" of major status.

Let's not forget LA's own jam band king, LITTLE FEAT. They're really the "third school" in today's jam band circles.

Originally Posted by slipkid

That aside, I love the Allman Brothers Band. It's great Youtube has some Duane era performances online. There's a "Dreams" from 9/70 that is just stellar. I also like the current lineup with Warren Haynes and Derek Trucks on guitar, easily the best tandem since Duane was alive. The Live at the Beacon DVD is a must own.

I wouldn't say "easily"...those early 90's days with Dickey Betts & Warren Haynes were pretty damned special. Warren was definitely channeling Duane during his first stretch with the band (89-97) his tone and attack changed quite a bit by the time he came back in '99 after his full time stint in Gov't Mule. And, those two years with Dickey Betts & Jack Pearson (97-99) were really awesome, as well...you gotta check out Jack's work (nothing "official" ever released, just a bunch of high quality live bootleg stuff.) Butch Trucks was even quoted as saying, "Had Duane lived, he'd be Jack Pearson"... strong words! There are some performances of "Dreams I'll Never See" & "Liz Reed" with Jack Pearson that some have said are the best versions ever performed. To each their own..."Dreams' was definitely Duane's slide statement and set the bar pretty damned high. (I'm not fully on the Derek Trucks bandwagon yet...yes, he's a great slide player even at his young age, but, there's still some fine tuning he lacks to my ear...he's ahead of the curve, maturity wise, but still gets a tad "out of control" at times.)

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Fleetwood Mac was outselling both Beatles & Stones COMBINED in the UK, they were just making their mark in the "hip" US circuit (the East & West Fillmores, The Wherehouse in N.O., etc), opening for both the GD & ABB. Peter was jamming with Duane & Jerry through those times, as well (as you mention below). Zeppelin was pretty much at the same "fame level" as Fleetwood Mac in '70 (they might've had a head start on the US market, granted, but not by much)...they didn't really go ballistic until the Beatles broke up and Peter Green left Fleetwood Mac...their 4th album, released in late '71 took them to that pinnacle. Had Peter stuck around, FMac would've most likely been the "king of the hill" keeping Zep off that (misty) mountain top.

One question: Did Clifford Adams (Davis) have the "balls" of Peter Grant?? I don't think so. He's why Zeppelin became so popular.

Originally Posted by chiliD

Sure, there's the live "Rattlesnake Shakes" & "Green Manalishis" that go on forever with Peter stretching them out....but contrary to bands like the GD & ABB, Mick & John stuck to a groove and didn't vary from that unless Peter forced the issue...listen to Barry, Butch & Jaimoe (ABB) and Phil, Bill & Mickey (GD)...they're out there forging their own territory while Jerry, or Duane & Dickey are off doing their thing floating on the rhythm section's foundation..sometimes the rhythm section even set up the signposts for Jerry or Duane to follow. For Peter, he had the band on his back doing all the heavy lifting...Danny was an occasional "rest stop", but even as great as Mick & John are together, Peter still needed more from the rhythm section. Unless things would've changed drastically, I don't really think Fleetwood Mac ever would've attained "Jam band" status on a GD/ABB level, even had Peter stayed. If you want the "British Jam Band" school...think CREAM. They were basically the first "jam band" of major status.

The post Jeremy Spencer early 1971 U.S. tour with Peter Green showed a side of the band that was never embraced. That was some serious jamming. As far as CREAM goes, there is good jamming, and there is ego noodling. Towards the end, Jack Bruce hated Ginger Baker to the point of drowning him out with his bass. Fleetwood Mac 1/70-4/70 went beyond Cream with better performances, since Peter Green was without ego by this time.

Originally Posted by chiliD

Let's not forget LA's own jam band king, LITTLE FEAT. They're really the "third school" in today's jam band circles.

I cannot stand Little Feat. They couldn't polish Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac's shoes as a jam band. They were a bunch of phoney's from LA that thought they could play New Orleans blues/funk. There is this band called the Meters, that does it much better!

Originally Posted by chiliD

I wouldn't say "easily"...those early 90's days with Dickey Betts & Warren Haynes were pretty damned special. Warren was definitely channeling Duane during his first stretch with the band (89-97) his tone and attack changed quite a bit by the time he came back in '99 after his full time stint in Gov't Mule. And, those two years with Dickey Betts & Jack Pearson (97-99) were really awesome, as well...you gotta check out Jack's work (nothing "official" ever released, just a bunch of high quality live bootleg stuff.) Butch Trucks was even quoted as saying, "Had Duane lived, he'd be Jack Pearson"... strong words! There are some performances of "Dreams I'll Never See" & "Liz Reed" with Jack Pearson that some have said are the best versions ever performed. To each their own..."Dreams' was definitely Duane's slide statement and set the bar pretty damned high. (I'm not fully on the Derek Trucks bandwagon yet...yes, he's a great slide player even at his young age, but, there's still some fine tuning he lacks to my ear...he's ahead of the curve, maturity wise, but still gets a tad "out of control" at times.)

I saw the ABB in 1989, Warren Haynes first year with the band. It was the best concert I'd ever seen up to the point. I saw them the following year, and it wasn't the same (even though they brought back the oil projections with the mushrooms). I don't know if Dickey Betts was drinking again or on drugs, but something was off. That 11/89 concert was special.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by slipkid

I cannot stand Little Feat. They couldn't polish Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac's shoes as a jam band. They were a bunch of phoney's from LA that thought they could play New Orleans blues/funk. There is this band called the Meters, that does it much better!

Whew! Ok, I think we'd better just "agree to disagree" before I go off on you an rip you a couple'a new ones.

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Whew! Ok, I think we'd better just "agree to disagree" before I go off on you an rip you a couple'a new ones.

Ok, I came on a little strong, sorry. Little Feat is a good band, I think Lowell George was a great guitar player. It's just not my thing, that's all. It also may explain why some of the current jam bands don't interest me. I never thought of Little Feat as the third strand, but now it makes sense.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by slipkid

Ok, I came on a little strong, sorry. Little Feat is a good band, I think Lowell George was a great guitar player. It's just not my thing, that's all. It also may explain why some of the current jam bands don't interest me. I never thought of Little Feat as the third strand, but now it makes sense.

Cool.

I miss Lowell big time. I'm glad they got back together and have stayed active, but there IS that *thing* missing in their approach without Lowell. Craig Fuller did a good Lowell imitation, but that's all it was, "imitation". After he left, they finally started to find their own new sound.

But, "phoneys"?? No way. That's what irked me.

There's nobody like The Meters, or the Neville Bros, for that matter....that's for damned sure!!!

Long live Professor Longhair!!

[jeremy spencer]

it's rare to see an apology on an argumentative blog these days!

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Cool.

I miss Lowell big time. I'm glad they got back together and have stayed active, but there IS that *thing* missing in their approach without Lowell. Craig Fuller did a good Lowell imitation, but that's all it was, "imitation". After he left, they finally started to find their own new sound.

But, "phoneys"?? No way. That's what irked me.

There's nobody like The Meters, or the Neville Bros, for that matter....that's for damned sure!!!

Long live Professor Longhair!!

I'm happy you've accepted my apology. My anger had nothing to do with the post, I was just responding in a bad mood. Another band that needs to be mentioned in the Jam band scene is The Marshall Tucker Band. Just like the Allmans, they are the anti-Lynyrd Skynyrd version of southern rock. In that case the Feat belong as well. Since I'm a big Flying Burrito Brothers fan (with or w/o Gram Parsons), I see how my glass house would be full of holes mocking Little Feat.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by slipkid

I'm happy you've accepted my apology. My anger had nothing to do with the post, I was just responding in a bad mood. Another band that needs to be mentioned in the Jam band scene is The Marshall Tucker Band. Just like the Allmans, they are the anti-Lynyrd Skynyrd version of southern rock. In that case the Feat belong as well. Since I'm a big Flying Burrito Brothers fan (with or w/o Gram Parsons), I see how my glass house would be full of holes mocking Little Feat.

It's all good...I pretty much over-reacted, too.

That original lineup of the MTB was one of the best live bands of all-time...I felt sorry for any act that had to follow them. They opened for the ABB back in '73 & '75, even as good at the "Brothers" were then, they had to be on their toes every night following the Caldwell boys. I saw the MTB open for Stephen Stills....even after a 45 minute intermission between acts, the crowd was STILL "buzzing" after MTB's set. Stills made the mistake of trying to open his show with a solo acoustic set...just didn't work...the audience was wanting more high energy performances.

I wouldn't categorize the MTB as a "jam band", though...they played pretty tight arrangements except for a couple of songs ("24 Hrs At A Time" & "Everyday I Have The Blues")

Those first two Burrito Bros albums were classics. How can you go wrong with Gram Parsons & Chris Hillman in the same band? Later incarnations just seemed to fill up with lesser known and later incarnation ex-Byrds members (Gene Parsons, Skip Battin, etc)...but, the FBB family tree is more like a "web" rather than a "tree".

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Spencer

it's rare to see an apology on an argumentative blog these days!

Thanks for the kudo, so I'm using this is an opportunity.

I probably lost your attention a couple days ago, which is my fault. I'm very curious about this subject: your guitar of choice. Why did you switch to a Gibson Flying V guitar towards the end run of the Peter Green era of Fleetwood Mac? Then after Green left you returned to a hollow body guitar? At least you did in the Kiln House sessions that were captured for a documentary. My nickname songwriter praised the Fleetwood Mac version of blues music, along with Chicken Shack. Here's the clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1c2O58N0mI


P.S. As for what you play now (which I believe is a Paul Reed Smith), did you have to visit the states to purchase that guitar?

[jeremy spencer]

Originally Posted by slipkid

Thanks for the kudo, so I'm using this is an opportunity.

I probably lost your attention a couple days ago, which is my fault. I'm very curious about this subject: your guitar of choice. Why did you switch to a Gibson Flying V guitar towards the end run of the Peter Green era of Fleetwood Mac? Then after Green left you returned to a hollow body guitar? At least you did in the Kiln House sessions that were captured for a documentary. My nickname songwriter praised the Fleetwood Mac version of blues music, along with Chicken Shack. Here's the clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1c2O58N0mI


P.S. As for what you play now (which I believe is a Paul Reed Smith), did you have to visit the states to purchase that guitar?

I switched to a Flying V because I had been listening to Albert King a lot, and wanted to duplicate his sound with a slide. I realised that was due to his plucking with this fingers instead of a pick and I didn't have the confidence for that until I traded my SG for a PRS in the mid nineties. However the PRS 24 frets were too close together for my accuracy using a pick, so I dropped the pick and found a new lease on life plucking with my fingers while playing slide.
The f-hole Hofner was a result of a desire to return to that single coil pick-up sound as opposed to humbuckers, but I didn't know why! I now know. Humbuckers don't seem to be sensitive enough to the nuances of the fingering when playing slide.
Oh well. It's all technical. But I now use a PRS with 3 P90 single coils which is just perfect.
Hope that answers your question, Slipkid!

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by jeremy spencer

Humbuckers don't seem to be sensitive enough to the nuances of the fingering when playing slide.

Just an idea, but you actually may want to try one of those Rick Turner guitars that Lindsey plays. It was designed specifically for finger-style guitar, and I would imagine that would also translate into slide guitar. I know ChiliD has one, and has sworn that it makes a sweet guitar for blues, too.

I'd be curious to hear what a slide would sound like on one of those. I suppose there's a Steve Miller bootleg out there with him playing one with slide.

[slipkid]

Thanks Jeremy!