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[LukeA]

Originally Posted by ajmccarrell

Based on what?

AZScam, for one.

Don Bolles, and the Hensley family legacy of their involvement with the mafia in Arizona.

Arizona is a treasure trove of McCain scandals.

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by LukeA

I am completely aware of Weather Underground, and its participants... and you'd have to be a f'ing partisan moron (a stretch, I'm sure) to honestly, truthfully (to yourself) think it even begins to compare to Al Qaeda.

I reported your post. I don't mind people attacking positions or saying my position was stupid, but attacking me was over a line and I won't tolerate it or allow it to escalate anymore.

The comparison is this: The Weathermen and Al Qaeda are both terrorist organizations that resort to violence to further their agenda. They have no formal country, no formal relations, to negotiation procedures or anything else a civilised society would have before going to war. They had no international mandate or anything else. Yet, they repeatedly bombed civilian targets with the clear intent of killing people. To me, it doesn't matter how many people they ended up killing, the problem is the same: these people are/were terrorists. Just because they didn't kill as many people as Al Qaeda doesn't mean it's okay for a Presidential nominee to go around and use their connections to further his political career. Such a connection is vastly worse than corruption, it is amoral ad mercenary. It's not like Ayers became a terrorist later on after Obama stopped hanging out with him. Obama associated with him knowing full well what he and Bernadine Dohrn were.

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by LukeA

AZScam, for one.

Don Bolles, and the Hensley family legacy of their involvement with the mafia in Arizona.

Arizona is a treasure trove of McCain scandals.

Azscam has nothing to do with McCain and it is in no way compirable to stuff like Al Capone and the rampant ACORN voter fraud that plagues and/or plagued Chicago. I cannot find anything on a credible site that indicates that the Hensley family is in any way connected to the mafia. They are all really far left sites and if there was any truth to it, Keith Olberman or the NY Times would have been all over it and they haven't been. I would have heard about it in the Mainstream Press by now.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by BombaySapphire3

At a McCain rally on Monday when the crazy old coot brought up Obama some rube in the audience actuallly screamed out 'terrorist".I hope there aren't enough stupid rednecks left in this country to buy this bull****.I am so looking forward to McCain/Palin going down..I'm sure we'll see more of their true character as they do.

If McCain had half of the honor he had in, say, February 08 - he would have corrected that person. But, that would stifle the utterly false innuendo that Obama is a Muslim terrorist - that is the sole message of McCain and his campaign in this current shell game. Pathetic.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by LukeA

Ditto Arizona & Alaska. Especially Arizona.

Well, if you (generally) want to talk corruption, you need look no further than the current administration. W and Cheney are the most corrupt people ever to lead this country, and that is saying a mouthful. They will not be happy until the leave the White House in fames behind them as long as the pokets of their cronies are full.

In this election, McCain chose to shed his independence from these crooks and instead consciously closely aligned himself with them by:

1. voting with them 95% of the time last year;

2. taking on the exact agenda of the RNC, and;

3. selecting Pain to play to the far religious right, prior to that despised McCain.

McCain cannot now have it both ways.

McCain was their's when they covered him with praise and now he has to be their's now that they cover him with shame. It wasn't like he did not know what he was doing with W and that ilk

Also, McCain clearly had culpability in the Keating Five. He took hundreds of thousands from Keating. His wife and father and law invested hundreds of thousands with Keating. He took extravagant trips with Keating and failed to pay for them until he was made to do so. Finally, his transition from the House to the Senate is mostly responsible for his non-conviction. The Senate Ethics Committee did not pursue, for lack of jurisdiction, any possible ethics breaches in McCain's delayed reimbursements to Keating for trips at the latter's expense, because they occurred while McCain was in the House http://graphics.boston.com/news/poli...scandal+.shtml

In the end and again, I think accepting what are clearly bribes and having your family openly invest with a crook (which everyone knew he was at the time) is not even in the same league as being neighbors with Ayers and being in a board meeting a few time a year with Ayers. I freely admit Obama was an idiot for associating in any way with Ayers (though he apparently is part of Chicago society) - but come on - that hardly makes Obama a terrorist.

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

If McCain had half of the honor he had in, say, February 08 - he would have corrected that person. But, that would stifle the utterly false innuendo that Obama is a Muslim terrorist - that is the sole message of McCain and his campaign in this current shell game. Pathetic.

No one in the McCain camp has said that he is a Muslim terrorist. Can you cite a specific example? No, I didn't think so. Obama does hang out with terrorists however. You might find some of the videos I posted earlier quite amusing.

I guess you also didn't catch Anderson Cooper 360 last night, where he uncovered that Obama, through a charity, funneled hundreds of thousands of dollars to one of Bill Ayers' educational outfits. But, I mean, why believe the news, I mean Obama says he just lives in the same neighborhood as this guy. I mean, this isn't Fox, this is CNN, aka "The Communist News Network" and even they can see Obama for what he is; a sleazy Chicago politician who sold his soul to the radicals of his party to get where he is. The guy is wearing a neon sign that screams, "corrupt" and everyone is so blinded by Bush hatred that they can't see this guy for what he really is.

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Well, if you (generally) want to talk corruption, you need look no further than the current administration. W and Cheney are the most corrupt people ever to lead this country, and that is saying a mouthful. They will not be happy until the leave the White House in fames behind them as long as the pokets of their cronies are full.

In this election, McCain chose to shed his independence from these crooks and instead consciously closely aligned himself with them by:

1. voting with them 95% of the time last year;

2. taking on the exact agenda of the RNC, and;

3. selecting Pain to play to the far religious right, prior to that despised McCain.

McCain cannot now have it both ways.

McCain was their's when they covered him with praise and now he has to be their's now that they cover him with shame. It wasn't like he did not know what he was doing with W and that ilk

Also, McCain clearly had culpability in the Keating Five. He took hundreds of thousands from Keating. His wife and father and law invested hundreds of thousands with Keating. He took extravagant trips with Keating and failed to pay for them until he was made to do so. Finally, his transition from the House to the Senate is mostly responsible for his non-conviction. The Senate Ethics Committee did not pursue, for lack of jurisdiction, any possible ethics breaches in McCain's delayed reimbursements to Keating for trips at the latter's expense, because they occurred while McCain was in the House http://graphics.boston.com/news/poli...scandal+.shtml

In the end and again, I think accepting what are clearly bribes and having your family openly invest with a crook (which everyone knew he was at the time) is not even in the same league as being neighbors with Ayers and being in a board meeting a few time a year with Ayers. I freely admit Obama was an idiot for associating in any way with Ayers (though he apparently is part of Chicago society) - but come on - that hardly makes Obama a terrorist.

Like I mentioned before, Obama funneled hundreds of thousands of dollars to Ayers through his position as the chairman of a charity. He announced his candidacy at Ayers' home. They sat on two boards together for 11 years. They were still speaking up until Obama ran for President. If you ask Obama, they just passed a few times on an L train.

Also, I hate to state the obvious, Bush and Cheney are not on the ticket this election.

If Obama really has a problem with the Keating deal, he should ask John Glenn to resign from his campaign, as he was one of the five too. However, again, both Glenn and McCain were cleared. McCain actually passed McCain-Feingold to ensure nothing like that could happen again.

Obama also voted with Bush and Cheney 60% of the time. Check yer facts there Strandy!

[strandinthewind]

Here is a scathing article on McCain's involvement in the Keating Five scandal:

The story of "the Keating Five" has become a scandal rivaling Teapot Dome and Watergate

By Tom Fitzpatrick

published: November 29, 1989

You're John McCain, a fallen hero who wanted to become president so desperately that you sold yourself to Charlie Keating, the wealthy con man who bears such an incredible resemblance to The Joker.

Obviously, Keating thought you could make it to the White House, too.

He poured $112,000 into your political campaigns. He became your friend. He threw fund raisers in your honor. He even made a sweet shopping-center investment deal for your wife, Cindy. Your father-in-law, Jim Hensley, was cut in on the deal, too.

Nothing was too good for you. Why not? Keating saw you as a prime investment that would pay off in the future.

So he flew you and your family around the country in his private jets. Time after time, he put you up for serene, private vacations at his vast, palatial spa in the Bahamas. All of this was so grand. You were protected from what Thomas Hardy refers to as "the madding crowd." It was almost as though you were already staying at a presidential retreat.

Like the old song, that now seems "Long ago and far away."

Since Keating's collapse, you find yourself doing obscene things to save yourself from the Senate Ethics Committee's investigation. As a matter of course, you engage in backbiting behavior that will turn you into an outcast in the Senate if you do survive.

They say that if you put five lobsters into a pot and give them a chance to escape, none will be able to do so before you light the fire. Each time a lobster tries to climb over the top, his fellow lobsters will pull him back down. It is the way of lobsters and threatened United States senators.

And, of course, that's the way it is with the Keating Five. You are all battling to save your own hides. So you, McCain, leak to reporters about who did Keating's bidding in pressuring federal regulators to change the rules for Lincoln Savings and Loan.

When the reporters fail to print your tips quickly enough--as in the case of your tip on Michigan Senator Donald Riegle--you call them back and remind them how important it is to get that information in the newspapers.

The story of "the Keating Five" has become a scandal rivaling Teapot Dome and Watergate. The outcome will be decided, not in a courtroom, but probably on national television.

Those who survive will be the sociopaths who can tell a lie with the most sincere, straight face. You are especially adept at this.

Last Friday night, on The John McLaughlin Show, which features well-known Washington journalists, the subject of the Keating Five was discussed. Panelist Jack Germond suggested that three of the Keating Five were probably already through in politics.

So you spend your days desperately trying to make sure you will be one of the survivors. You keep volunteering to go on radio and television stations to protest your innocence. Last week you made ABC's Nightline.

Not long before that you somehow managed to get James Kilpatrick, the national columnist, to write a favorable paragraph about you. Last Sunday morning, you made it to national television again; this time on ABC's This Week With David Brinkley. You smiled at the panel with your usual studied insouciance. Sitting next to you was Senator John Glenn of Ohio.

Brinkley, Sam Donaldson, and George Will were the interrogators.

It was a sobering scene. There you sat with Glenn, both sweating before the cameras, waiting to answer questions: two badly tarnished American icons.

No one forgets that Glenn was the first American astronaut to orbit the Earth. You won't let anyone forget that you were a prisoner of war. But you have played that tune too long. By now your constant reminders about your war record make you seem like a modern version of Arthur Miller's tragic failure Willy Loman.

Clearly, both you and Glenn sold your fame for Charles Keating's money.

It was a Faustian bargain. It was also a bad joke on the rest of us and a disaster for many old people who lost their life's savings to Keating.

The money was never really Keating's to give. But he never would have got his hands on it if you and the rest of the Keating Five didn't halt the government takeover for two long years while Keating's people continued their looting.

And now, the tab for the Savings and Loan heist must be paid from taxpayer pockets.

On Sunday, Senators Dennis DeConcini, Alan Cranston, and Riegle refused offers to appear on the Brinkley show. What must we make of that?

You, the closest of them to Keating and the deepest in his debt, have chosen the path of the hard sell. You may even make it out of the pot, but to many, your protestations of innocence taste like gall.

You are determined to bluff your way. You will stick to your story that you were acting to help a constituent and intended to do nothing improper. The very fact you attended the meeting makes you guilty, just as every man who entered the Brinks vault went to prison.

You insist that an accounting firm Keating hired told you Lincoln was sound. Alan Greenspan, who Keating also hired, wrote a report saying it was sound. Why shouldn't you believe the people Keating hired? You were, after all, fellow employees.

Perhaps you might silence your own conscience about all this someday.

Just keep telling everyone that it was your wife's money invested in that shopping center with Keating and that you knew nothing about it.

Keep saying that cynical newspaper people don't understand that every move you make has always been for the enrichment of Arizona . . . the education of our Native Americans on the reservations . . . for the love of the elderly in Sun City and Green Valley.

Keep telling them that it wasn't that you were bought off but that Charlie Keating got special help only because he was one of the biggest employers in the state.

Just keep sitting there and staring into the camera and denying that Keating bought you for money and jet plane trips and vacations.

So what if he gave you $112,000? Just keep smiling at the cameras and saying you did nothing wrong.

Maybe the voters will understand you took those tiring trips to Charlie's place in the Bahamas in their behalf. Certainly, they can understand you wanted to take your family along. A senator deserves to travel on private jets, removed from the awful crush of public transportation.

You sought out a master criminal like Keating and became his friend. Now you've discarded him. It shouldn't be surprising that you are now in the process of selling out your senatorial accomplices.

You're John McCain, clearly the guiltiest, most culpable and reprehensible of the Keating Five. But you know the power of television and you realize this is the only way you can possibly save your political career.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1989-...keating-five/1

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Here is a scathing article on McCain's involvement in the Keating Five scandal:

The story of "the Keating Five" has become a scandal rivaling Teapot Dome and Watergate

By Tom Fitzpatrick

published: November 29, 1989

You're John McCain, a fallen hero who wanted to become president so desperately that you sold yourself to Charlie Keating, the wealthy con man who bears such an incredible resemblance to The Joker.

Obviously, Keating thought you could make it to the White House, too.

He poured $112,000 into your political campaigns. He became your friend. He threw fund raisers in your honor. He even made a sweet shopping-center investment deal for your wife, Cindy. Your father-in-law, Jim Hensley, was cut in on the deal, too.

Nothing was too good for you. Why not? Keating saw you as a prime investment that would pay off in the future.

So he flew you and your family around the country in his private jets. Time after time, he put you up for serene, private vacations at his vast, palatial spa in the Bahamas. All of this was so grand. You were protected from what Thomas Hardy refers to as "the madding crowd." It was almost as though you were already staying at a presidential retreat.

Like the old song, that now seems "Long ago and far away."

Since Keating's collapse, you find yourself doing obscene things to save yourself from the Senate Ethics Committee's investigation. As a matter of course, you engage in backbiting behavior that will turn you into an outcast in the Senate if you do survive.

They say that if you put five lobsters into a pot and give them a chance to escape, none will be able to do so before you light the fire. Each time a lobster tries to climb over the top, his fellow lobsters will pull him back down. It is the way of lobsters and threatened United States senators.

And, of course, that's the way it is with the Keating Five. You are all battling to save your own hides. So you, McCain, leak to reporters about who did Keating's bidding in pressuring federal regulators to change the rules for Lincoln Savings and Loan.

When the reporters fail to print your tips quickly enough--as in the case of your tip on Michigan Senator Donald Riegle--you call them back and remind them how important it is to get that information in the newspapers.

The story of "the Keating Five" has become a scandal rivaling Teapot Dome and Watergate. The outcome will be decided, not in a courtroom, but probably on national television.

Those who survive will be the sociopaths who can tell a lie with the most sincere, straight face. You are especially adept at this.

Last Friday night, on The John McLaughlin Show, which features well-known Washington journalists, the subject of the Keating Five was discussed. Panelist Jack Germond suggested that three of the Keating Five were probably already through in politics.

So you spend your days desperately trying to make sure you will be one of the survivors. You keep volunteering to go on radio and television stations to protest your innocence. Last week you made ABC's Nightline.

Not long before that you somehow managed to get James Kilpatrick, the national columnist, to write a favorable paragraph about you. Last Sunday morning, you made it to national television again; this time on ABC's This Week With David Brinkley. You smiled at the panel with your usual studied insouciance. Sitting next to you was Senator John Glenn of Ohio.

Brinkley, Sam Donaldson, and George Will were the interrogators.

It was a sobering scene. There you sat with Glenn, both sweating before the cameras, waiting to answer questions: two badly tarnished American icons.

No one forgets that Glenn was the first American astronaut to orbit the Earth. You won't let anyone forget that you were a prisoner of war. But you have played that tune too long. By now your constant reminders about your war record make you seem like a modern version of Arthur Miller's tragic failure Willy Loman.

Clearly, both you and Glenn sold your fame for Charles Keating's money.

It was a Faustian bargain. It was also a bad joke on the rest of us and a disaster for many old people who lost their life's savings to Keating.

The money was never really Keating's to give. But he never would have got his hands on it if you and the rest of the Keating Five didn't halt the government takeover for two long years while Keating's people continued their looting.

And now, the tab for the Savings and Loan heist must be paid from taxpayer pockets.

On Sunday, Senators Dennis DeConcini, Alan Cranston, and Riegle refused offers to appear on the Brinkley show. What must we make of that?

You, the closest of them to Keating and the deepest in his debt, have chosen the path of the hard sell. You may even make it out of the pot, but to many, your protestations of innocence taste like gall.

You are determined to bluff your way. You will stick to your story that you were acting to help a constituent and intended to do nothing improper. The very fact you attended the meeting makes you guilty, just as every man who entered the Brinks vault went to prison.

You insist that an accounting firm Keating hired told you Lincoln was sound. Alan Greenspan, who Keating also hired, wrote a report saying it was sound. Why shouldn't you believe the people Keating hired? You were, after all, fellow employees.

Perhaps you might silence your own conscience about all this someday.

Just keep telling everyone that it was your wife's money invested in that shopping center with Keating and that you knew nothing about it.

Keep saying that cynical newspaper people don't understand that every move you make has always been for the enrichment of Arizona . . . the education of our Native Americans on the reservations . . . for the love of the elderly in Sun City and Green Valley.

Keep telling them that it wasn't that you were bought off but that Charlie Keating got special help only because he was one of the biggest employers in the state.

Just keep sitting there and staring into the camera and denying that Keating bought you for money and jet plane trips and vacations.

So what if he gave you $112,000? Just keep smiling at the cameras and saying you did nothing wrong.

Maybe the voters will understand you took those tiring trips to Charlie's place in the Bahamas in their behalf. Certainly, they can understand you wanted to take your family along. A senator deserves to travel on private jets, removed from the awful crush of public transportation.

You sought out a master criminal like Keating and became his friend. Now you've discarded him. It shouldn't be surprising that you are now in the process of selling out your senatorial accomplices.

You're John McCain, clearly the guiltiest, most culpable and reprehensible of the Keating Five. But you know the power of television and you realize this is the only way you can possibly save your political career.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1989-...keating-five/1

This is an opinion piece, not objective journalism. There is a difference.

Also, if you saw the McCain documentary on CNN, this guy has since changed his tune.

Besides, how can you really compare bombing the capital, trying to assassinate a Supreme Court justice, multiple bombings, riots and arson with something that the guy was eventually acquitted of? Also, in case you forgot, it was a democratic congress that acquitted McCain. This piece was also written before his acquittal, which means this guy jumped the gun. Also, Ayers and Obama were still chummy until 2 years ago. This "news" here is 20 years old now.

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by ashton

I found the debate to be endlessly amusing. Poor Palin came across as though she was trying out for Legally Blonde III, Elle Woods Runs for VP. The winking just cracked me up but the whole package was just too much.

Katherine Harris always made me laugh for being such an air-headed loon, but Palin may just turn out to be my favorite of them all. They should get a daytime TV show together when this is all over.

Wait a second. . . . who WOULDN'T vote for Elle Woods?

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

Wait a second. . . . who WOULDN'T vote for Elle Woods?

I think that analogy holds. Elle Woods was able to get into Harvard, yet she didn't come off as that smart. Whereas Biden came off as smart, but he made up a bunch of stuff and talked out his rear to do it. It's easy to sound smart if no one will check your facts. Ted Baxter lives!

[GoS]

Originally Posted by ajmccarrell

No one in the McCain camp has said that he is a Muslim terrorist. Can you cite a specific example? No, I didn't think so. Obama does hang out with terrorists however.

Three things.
A) Welcome back, we missed you!!

B) He said innuendo, as in implicitly suggesting it. That, and other similar ideas, is what they are playing to when they say "Country First" and whatever else they feel like saying to suggest that Obama is not like everyone else.

C) Obama and Ayers are not the closest of friends and have not seen each other in years. You make it sound like Obama calls him at the end of the day to talk about what happened that day.

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by GoS

Three things.
A) Welcome back, we missed you!!

B) He said innuendo, as in implicitly suggesting it. That, and other similar ideas, is what they are playing to when they say "Country First" and whatever else they feel like saying to suggest that Obama is not like everyone else.

C) Obama and Ayers are not the closest of friends and have not seen each other in years. You make it sound like Obama calls him at the end of the day to talk about what happened that day.

As far A) THANKS!!!

As for B) I think that point of view is quite a stretch. The overarching message of the RNC was that Obama was putting his own ambitions before his country, which has nothing to do with what color he is. For C), the point is that Obama is trying very hard to downplay this association, despite that they were once very much involved. I think Obama has moved to the national stage and Ayers was more of a local guy, so he's not part of his current career. Clearly Obama is embarrassed about the association, but I don't think he's being honest. I completely understand that Ayers is unavoidable, as was someone like Falwell for a Republican. However, it seems that he could put a lot of questions to rest by just saying that. He could say something like, "Sure, I was involved with Bill Ayers. It was nearly impossible to work in the Chicago community because he was involved in almost everything." But instead of that, Obama is acting like he's got something to hide and he makes it sound like they once ate at the same McDonald's and that's it.

[GypsySorcerer]

^^^It says we're f*cked if McCain is elected.

[ajmccarrell]

First off, there were quite a few timeline errors just in the first four paragraphs. Also, McCain acknowledges that he was an asshole before being captured, he's written about most of it. No surprises there. At the RNC he said that he always put himself first before his capture.

Where was this published anyway?