Chris won't come back....

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by dissention

Can you hear me laughing all the way in Louisiana, dear?

Glad you liked that.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by David

How can you tell -- between the dozens of producing, engineering & backup playing hands on the "Say You Will" album & the single dozen backup playing hands on the "Say You Will" tour?

How can you figure out what the hell you're actually listening to? More power to ya if you can.

Fleetwood Mac -- the actual members of Fleetwood Mac -- hides itself well nowadays.

Precisely my point. Fleetwood Mac hasn't been a "band" in years, especially in terms of a touring band.

[David]

Originally Posted by macfan 57

I know I could never mock or make fun of her in any way.

Like an evangelical's attitude toward Christ. . .

I'm not sure that sort of devotion really captures Christine's personality or spirit. She's a lot more wry, sardonic & critical, & not quite so woozy-eyed.

I myself approach Christine (& the rest of the Mac) the way she would approach her favorites: "Let's see how this all measures up"

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

I think it's because Stevie gets so much over-the-top devotion that people want to balance that out by criticizing her, since some of her fans do not dare to ever criticize her. I do this because I sense that some people really think she's above humanity. And I'm fanatical about her myself, so I like to be vocal about what I don't like in order to remind myself and others that I know she isn't a goddess. Stevie's just been such a big deal for so long that it's ridiculous and it seems bound to make her big-headed. (Some say it has). Here on The Ledge, we're really good at criticizing (I think so, anyway), and a legendary icon like Stevie just seems to ask for it. Of course, as soon as someone starts up about her weight or implies that all of her music is just fluffy nonsense, my claws are coming out!

As for Christine, she seemed to always be in the background to me, and her personality versus Stevie's set her up to be underappreciated, I think. It seems that she has many fewer devotees than Stevie has, so people are less inclined to be critical of her for having an insanely large fan base. I think of her as an icon, but she really isn't to the general population, and that helps her case, too. It just seems like there isn't any reason to poke fun at her. Stevie sets the stage for it, IMO, by being so upfront about everything. Christine's decision to be low-key put us in a position where there wasn't really anything to make fun of. (Now, granted I haven't seen those much-talked-about Tusk videos in which she's totally toasted). This may be unfortunate, but I think the more you put yourself out there and share everything you've got to share and do unnecessary things like lasso dances to songs that have nothing to do with wrangling anything (???), you open yourself up to ridicule. I haven't seen Christine put herself out there in that way that Stevie has at all. Okay, I need to stop typing this before I find myself restating everything I said for the eighth time.

Hillary, that was the BEST assessment of the differences in Stevie's and Chris' fans that I've ever read. Perfect.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

I think it's because Stevie gets so much over-the-top devotion that people want to balance that out by criticizing her, since some of her fans do not dare to ever criticize her. I do this because I sense that some people really think she's above humanity. And I'm fanatical about her myself, so I like to be vocal about what I don't like in order to remind myself and others that I know she isn't a goddess.

I guess I just don't feel the need to remind myself, because I KNOW she's only a human-being, and I don't put that much power on anyone to begin with.
I don't fret over reminding others, because it's their deal if they wish to deify her... they're only going to end up disappointed in the end anyway, when mortality proves once and for all that she was only human.

The fans that I have the most bemused view of, tend to be the ones who seem to feel some obssessive-compulsive need to crucify (or ridicule) the woman at every turn. Does it really bother them that much if someone else sees her as perfect... and, if so, why?
Or is it that they're paranoid about being deemed guilty by association?
Or is it an ego thing, and they mistakenly think that demonstrations of cynicism are proof that they're so much more intelligent than those around them?

Frankly, I know what my I.Q. is, and, more importantly, I'm confident in my ability to reason and discern.
I also know that I view Stevie Nicks, quite simply, as a songwriter who happens to write the lyrics that move me moreso than any other lyricist has ever been able to, and happens to possess the voice that fascinates and entertains me moreso than any other singing voice I've ever heard.
I make no apologies for actually being fond of the woman, and being impressed by the way she's matured and grown over the years.

So I don't worry about being viewed as a sycophant, because I know the truth. The amount of Stevie's material that I'm not impressed by is dwarfed by the amount of material I am impressed by... and I've never seen a reason to dwell on the negatives. Especially when there are so many positives to focus on.
Plus, I just don't feel I have to tear Stevie down at every opportunity to prove something to myself or to anyone else.

Basically, I make absolutely no apologies for being a Stevie Nicks Fan.
Never have. Never will.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I know what my I.Q. is

Really? I don't know mine. But I would love to find out. I know it has to be bigger than my shoe size, at least.

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

Really? I don't know mine. But I would love to find out. I know it has to be bigger than my shoe size, at least.

I know mine, too.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

Really? I don't know mine. But I would love to find out. I know it has to be bigger than my shoe size, at least.

My shoe-size is 7.
My I.Q. is a bit bigger than that, but only just.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

Hillary, that was the BEST assessment of the differences in Stevie's and Chris' fans that I've ever read. Perfect.

Wow! Thanks!

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I guess I just don't feel the need to remind myself, because I KNOW she's only a human-being, and I don't put that much power on anyone to begin with.
I don't fret over reminding others, because it's their deal if they wish to deify her... they're only going to end up disappointed in the end anyway, when mortality proves once and for all that she was only human.

The fans that I have the most bemused view of, tend to be the ones who seem to feel some obssessive-compulsive need to crucify (or ridicule) the woman at every turn. Does it really bother them that much if someone else sees her as perfect... and, if so, why?
Or is it that they're paranoid about being deemed guilty by association?
Or is it an ego thing, and they mistakenly think that demonstrations of cynicism are proof that they're so much more intelligent than those around them?

Frankly, I know what my I.Q. is, and, more importantly, I'm confident in my ability to reason and discern.
I also know that I view Stevie Nicks, quite simply, as a songwriter who happens to write the lyrics that move me moreso than any other lyricist has ever been able to, and happens to possess the voice that fascinates and entertains me moreso than any other singing voice I've ever heard.
I make no apologies for actually being fond of the woman, and being impressed by the way she's matured and grown over the years.

So I don't worry about being viewed as a sycophant, because I know the truth. The amount of Stevie's material that I'm not impressed by is dwarfed by the amount of material I am impressed by... and I've never seen a reason to dwell on the negatives. Especially when there are so many positives to focus on.
Plus, I just don't feel I have to tear Stevie down at every opportunity to prove something to myself or to anyone else.

Basically, I make absolutely no apologies for being a Stevie Nicks Fan.
Never have. Never will.

I see your points here, but for whatever reason, I've always been annoyed by people who pretend like people are perfect. Or who actually believe it, which is worse. I guess it's because it's difficult to have a conversation with them. If you think Stevie is absolutely flawless, then you have a hard time looking past her and seeing what's good in other people. This attitude aggravates me, and I guess it goes back to being too concerned about what other people think, which is an unfortunate trait that goes along with being a young and insecure female.

I know that she's only human, but sometimes I don't know it, you know? (No--I'm sure you don't because that makes no sense, huh? ) Well, sometimes I'll immerse myself in her music, and then I'll get on the computer and read lots of articles about her and stare at tons of pictures of her, then I'll print out dozens of pictures of her, then I'll decorate entire walls of my room...and at some point I stop and look at what I'm doing and think Isn't this kind of crazy? Isn't this just another human being like me who just happened to get lucky and get rich and famous? It's like I don't believe that all the way sometimes, when I get caught up belting out the coked-up "Juliet" outtake and Stevie puts me on cloud nine. Sometimes I don't know what's real for a few seconds. Nearly an entire room full of pictures are staring at me looking all doeful or majestic or seductive or all three and I can lose myself in them easily. Sometimes I don't have a good feel for reality. Oh well. "It's just a feeling" that "sort of captures your soul." Or maybe I should take out the "your." Maybe it's just me. I'm the only one who's this crazy and now you'll all know how crazy I am and Marty and Lis will ask me to please stop posting.

And back to what Johnny Stew was saying , about the people who criticize Stevie relentlessly. I always figure those people who do it incessantly aren't really fans. They're the ones who prefer Lindsey or something like that and believe for some reason that we can't just all get along; they must pit Lindsey and Stevie against each other.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

My shoe-size is 7.
My I.Q. is a bit bigger than that, but only just.

A 7?

Damn boy, you must be tiny as all get out.

[David]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I just don't feel I have to tear Stevie down at every opportunity to prove something to myself or to anyone else.

The whole world is out to "prove something," Johnny, because every artist gets raked over the coals -- many a lot more so than others. You guys need to put Stevie criticism into some sort of context, & come back down to Earth. Stevie hasn't been treated any worse than thousands of other artists:


"If the right situation comes up, he doesn't mind repeating the same joke twenty times in one day." -- George Burns on Groucho Marx

"Miss United Dairies herself." -- David Niven on Jayne Mansfield

"Her nose: that red thin sharp snout -- it reminds you of an anteater." -- Truman Capote on Meryl Streep

"Became totally undirectable." -- Jackie Cooper on Loretta Swit

"He was after a career & adored making money & thought more of himself than anyone else." -- Artur Rubinstein on Vladimir Horowitz

"You can't put this man in a picture. Look at his ears -- like a bat!" -- Irving Thalberg on Clark Gable

"Her face is inscrutable, but I can't vouch for the rest of her." -- Oscar Levant on Zsa Zsa Gabor

"The elephantine capers of an obese mountebank." -- William Inge on G.K. Chesterton

"Everything he writes smells like a billy goat." -- Raymond Chandler on James M. Cain

"Normally a tapeworm keeps you thin, but it kept Callas fat." -- Anthony Burgess on Maria Callas

"You're too little & too fat, but I might give you a job." -- D.W. Griffith on Mary Pickford

"The cruelist thing that has happened to Lincoln since he was shot by Booth was to fall into the hands of Carl Sandburg." -- Edmund Wilson

"As an emotional actor, Welles is without insight, accuracy, power, or grace. In short, without talent." -- Walter Kerr on Orson Welles

"Any year after the invention of sound, film audiences could see her only as a figure of fun, a dumb creature jerking her sawdust heart around in a puppet world." -- Alistair Cooke on Sarah Bernhardt

"A clever, cheap exploiter of everything that comes to his hand, including the talent he began with." -- Stanley Kauffmann on Bernardo Bertolucci

"Taller than I & with even bigger feet." -- Ruth Warrick on Garbo

"Her mental attitude may have been pathetic but it turned her into a great bore." -- Anita Loos on Judy Garland

"Since Godard's films have nothing to say, we could perhaps have ninety minutes of silence instead of each of them." -- John Simon on Jean-Luc Godard

"I can't read Ben Johnson, especially his comedies. To me he appears to move in a wide sea of glue." -- Tennyson

"You have to have the stomach for ugliness to admire Carol Kane." -- John Simon

[dissention]

Originally Posted by David

"A clever, cheap exploiter of everything that comes to his hand, including the talent he began with." -- Stanley Kauffmann on Bernardo Bertolucci

"I can't read Ben Johnson, especially his comedies. To me he appears to move in a wide sea of glue." -- Tennyson

Truer words were never spoken.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by David

The whole world is out to "prove something," Johnny, because every artist gets raked over the coals -- many a lot more so than others. You guys need to put Stevie criticism into some sort of context, & come back down to Earth. Stevie hasn't been treated any worse than thousands of other artists:


"If the right situation comes up, he doesn't mind repeating the same joke twenty times in one day." -- George Burns on Groucho Marx

"Miss United Dairies herself." -- David Niven on Jayne Mansfield

"Her nose: that red thin sharp snout -- it reminds you of an anteater." -- Truman Capote on Meryl Streep

"Became totally undirectable." -- Jackie Cooper on Loretta Swit

"He was after a career & adored making money & thought more of himself than anyone else." -- Artur Rubinstein on Vladimir Horowitz

"You can't put this man in a picture. Look at his ears -- like a bat!" -- Irving Thalberg on Clark Gable

"Her face is inscrutable, but I can't vouch for the rest of her." -- Oscar Levant on Zsa Zsa Gabor

"The elephantine capers of an obese mountebank." -- William Inge on G.K. Chesterton

"Everything he writes smells like a billy goat." -- Raymond Chandler on James M. Cain

"Normally a tapeworm keeps you thin, but it kept Callas fat." -- Anthony Burgess on Maria Callas

"You're too little & too fat, but I might give you a job." -- D.W. Griffith on Mary Pickford

"The cruelist thing that has happened to Lincoln since he was shot by Booth was to fall into the hands of Carl Sandburg." -- Edmund Wilson

"As an emotional actor, Welles is without insight, accuracy, power, or grace. In short, without talent." -- Walter Kerr on Orson Welles

"Any year after the invention of sound, film audiences could see her only as a figure of fun, a dumb creature jerking her sawdust heart around in a puppet world." -- Alistair Cooke on Sarah Bernhardt

"A clever, cheap exploiter of everything that comes to his hand, including the talent he began with." -- Stanley Kauffmann on Bernardo Bertolucci

"Taller than I & with even bigger feet." -- Ruth Warrick on Garbo

"Her mental attitude may have been pathetic but it turned her into a great bore." -- Anita Loos on Judy Garland

"Since Godard's films have nothing to say, we could perhaps have ninety minutes of silence instead of each of them." -- John Simon on Jean-Luc Godard

"I can't read Ben Johnson, especially his comedies. To me he appears to move in a wide sea of glue." -- Tennyson

"You have to have the stomach for ugliness to admire Carol Kane." -- John Simon

But what about just in comparison to other members of FM?

[dissention]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

But what about just in comparison to other members of FM?

Does it matter? Should I reserve my comments regarding Stevie because there haven't been an equal number made about Lindsey or Christine? I don't think so. I'm not worried about whether or not I'm viewed as being harsh towards Stevie, I've been harsh to them all to some extent. But if I make more "negative" critical remarks towards her music, it's because I have more "issues" with her music than I do with Lindsey's or Christine's. Everyone has their favorites and when forming critical opinions, no one is objective, after all.