Katrina

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by David

Good luck to him, strand. He'll be okay.

Thank you (and to all) -

As for the snakes, after Betsy and Camille, they would find families on roofs with live snakes hanging off of them - I guess they were trying to eat the bodies.

This is a little too much for me to process right now.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by GypsySorcerer

I fear for the break-outs of disease if they are not evacuated immediately.

On "Today" this morning, they were discussing how pretty soon there are going to be massive breakouts of dysentery and how it's going to be quite horrific since there are such logistical problems in getting clean water to these poor people.

[SuzeQuze]

They will be covering this on Dateline tonight including survivor stories.

[strandinthewind]

Little progress in efforts to fix levees
Repair work might actually worsen situation, one source says

By Mike Stuckey
Senior News Editor
MSNBC
Updated: 3:11 p.m. ET Aug. 31, 2005



Floodwaters continued to pour into New Orleans unabated Wednesday, hindering attempts to repair damaged levees that surround the below-sea-level city. And an Army Corps of Engineers spokesman warned that the repair work could actually make the situation worse.

So great was the chaos created by the watery disaster that it was impossible to get official information on the extent of the damage to the levees or the state of efforts to patch them. (A 3 p.m. ET news conference could shed more light on repair work.)

But all sources agreed that the post-Hurricane Katrina nightmare was worsening, with the water continuing to rise in many places and little, if anything, had been accomplished to fix the breaches.

“You know, we’ve got an unprecedented situation here,” U.S. Army Corps of Engineers spokesman John Hall told MSNBC.com via cell phone from New Orleans.

Hall said his own attempts to round up current information were being stymied because “I’m on the phone every minute” with reporters from around the globe. But he could say that the biggest problem remained a breach in the eastern wall of the 17th Street Canal.

“Last I heard,” the breach was 300 feet long, from 4 feet to 20 feet deep, “all under water,” Hall said. Other reports, including one on the Web site of the New Orleans Times-Picayune, have estimated the breach to be as long as “500 yards and growing.”

Millions of gallons
The gap was allowing millions of gallons of water from Lake Pontchartrain, normally about sea level, but now several feet higher than that in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, to flood scores of New Orleans neighborhoods.

To the east, levees were also breached on the Industrial Canal, dumping water into the city’s famed French Quarter.


Repair efforts were focused on the 17th Street Canal rupture, but nobody contacted by MSNBC.com could say how they were proceeding Wednesday. Initial efforts to drop 3,000-pound sandbags via helicopter failed, the city’s mayor, Ray Nagin, said Tuesday night. While the weight of the bags may sound impressive, at a cubic yard apiece they are only the size of large refrigerator.

Mark Lambert of the Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development on Tuesday night told the Times-Picayune that an attempt to drop 15,000-pound concrete highway barriers into the breach was being planned. But by noon ET on Wednesday, Lambert could not say if that plan had been carried out.

“They’re going to try everything they can,” the Corps’ Hall said. But he pointed out that the 17th Street site has ”no land side access and no navigational access. … This is a drainage canal.” So engineers can’t drive heavy equipment to the breach and they can’t get barges close enough to work on it. A nearby railroad line might prove helpful, Hall said.

Confounding access issues are engineers’ fears that their own efforts might worsen some aspects of the flooding.


“As we narrow the gap, we’re going to face greater water velocity coming in,” Hall said. “We have to evaluate as we go. How long that takes, I don’t know. .. You must test. You must place material in there and then watch the impact.”

Mounting frustration over the inability to use conventional methods to fix the gaps have led to calls from some quarters to try bolder methods.

Throw barges at it?
“Move several barges into position ahead of the breech, in parallel fashion, fill them with water and sink them in place,” said Michael W. Holcomb, a senior environmental specialist with Dallas-based refiner Alon USA. “Stabilize somehow and then begin placing concrete around the gaps, and slowly then fill in the spaces with increasingly smaller and smaller fill material and effectively seal the breach well enough to allow repairs to the levee itself.”

A similar idea was being broached Wednesday the Corp’s own Maj. Gen. Don Riley, who pointed out once again that staunching the floodwaters is only a first step. After that, it could take close to a month to get the water out of the city, Riley said.

Maybe longer, said flood expert Gary Guhl of the engineering firm PBS&J.

“That’s a tremendous amount of water, that will take quite a while” said Guhl, who works on flood maps for the Federal Emergency Management Agency and spent four years with the Corps in the New Orleans area.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9145473/
____________________________________________________________

I cannot believe they cannot fix that breach. It seemingly would close of 1,000 of those bags were dropped almost in unison But, I am not an engineer.

[David]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I cannot believe they cannot fix that breach. It seemingly would close of 1,000 of those bags were dropped almost in unison But, I am not an engineer.

I guess New Orleans was one of the country's most picturesque, charming cities, & certainly people loved it far & wide. But from an engineer's perspective, it was a 300-year-old mistake. Building a city on the coastline below sea level is a grave error -- on this coastline, especially, because there is an expected 3-foot rise in sea level over the next few years.

I wonder where Louisianans are going to rebuild. If they had any sense, the whole area would be revamped for port facilities, the wetlands & other natural buffers would be restored, & the infrastructure would be rebuilt on higher ground. Maybe borrow some engineering ideas from the Dutch, who have mastered the craft of sophisticated dikes.

I think I posted something a few months ago about nature: something about not challenging it because it will usually win. If you put people & development on a coastline below sea level, you kill them just as if you had fired a rifle at them.

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

By Mike Stuckey
Senior News Editor
MSNBC
Updated: 3:11 p.m. ET Aug. 31, 2005

“You know, we’ve got an unprecedented situation here,” U.S. Army Corps of Engineers spokesman John Hall told MSNBC.com via cell phone from New Orleans.

I remember back in 1986 when the Arkansas River flooded due to excessive rain traveling down from Kansas...The Corp of Army Idiots decided to leave the dam at Keystone Lake closed because they figured the water flood levels would not be as bad to affect anything along the Arkansas River, Until the water poured (!!!) over the dam forcing these ass-a-techs to open the dam or watch the dam suffer failure and collapse costing lives...Thus flooding the banks of the river throughout Tulsa.

They did not realize that the flooding Arkansas River meets with 2 other flooded lakes in my hometown of Muskogee...So you can imagine the mess they made.

The USS Batfish (A decorated WWII submarine) that is in permanent dry-dock on the shores of the Arkansas River at the Port of Muskogee was under water for the first (And thus far only) time since it was still in commission...Looked funny to see the periscope & con towers pertruding out of the water, Made ya think that Muskogee was being invaded by the USSR

The highway between Muskogee & Okay (Highway 16) was under at least 10-15 feet of water, Therefore cutting off Okay from any rescue...I remembering seeing this firsthand and being scared ****less!!!

All this would have been avoided had the Army of Buttmunches would have just opened the gates of the dam.

[amber]

Originally Posted by David

I guess New Orleans was one of the country's most picturesque, charming cities, & certainly people loved it far & wide. But from an engineer's perspective, it was a 300-year-old mistake. Building a city on the coastline below sea level is a grave error -- on this coastline, especially, because there is an expected 3-foot rise in sea level over the next few years.

I wonder where Louisianans are going to rebuild. If they had any sense, the whole area would be revamped for port facilities, the wetlands & other natural buffers would be restored, & the infrastructure would be rebuilt on higher ground. Maybe borrow some engineering ideas from the Dutch, who have mastered the craft of sophisticated dikes.

I think I posted something a few months ago about nature: something about not challenging it because it will usually win. If you put people & development on a coastline below sea level, you kill them just as if you had fired a rifle at them.

This is true, and I'm so sad such a wonderful city was built where it was. I've never even seen it.
My sorrow over this is overwhelming. I really hope they do rebuild on higher ground.

[strandinthewind]

Canal breach update

Wednesday, 1:40 p.m.

By Jan Moller

BATON ROUGE - Water levels in Orleans Parish have crested and are beginning to slowly recede as the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers prepares to begin an unprecedented effort to fix a 200-foot breach in the 17th Street Canal that has inundated the city, state and federal officials said Wednesday.

State Secrertary of Transportation and Development Johnny Bradberry said Lake Pontchatrain has receded by two feet since yesterday as water levels equalized between the lake and the flooded city interior.

"The good news here is that we've stabilized. Water is not rising in the city," Bradberry said.

Maj. Gen. Don Reily of the Corps of Engineers said flood levels are now receding at a rate of one inch per hour, but that it's likely to take at least 30 days before all the water is gone from New Orleans. "Lake level has equalized with interior water inside the city,. which means that it won't be any more flowing into the city except for a high tide," Reily said.

The Corps and the Louisiana National Guard are planning to use Chinook helicopters to drop 1,200 bags of sand into the breach weighing 20,000 pounds each, and 250 concrete highway construction barriers. In the meantime, they are using smaller bags of sand, weighing 3,000 pounds apiece, to try to stem the deluge.

Fixing the levee breach has been the Corps' top priority, as the lengthy process of pumping water out of Orleans cannot begin until the canal walls are secure.

State officials announced the operation Tuesday and spent the night getting equipment into place, a process that was complicated when officials could not get enough slings that are needed to drop the material into the breach.

"The issue that we had was not enough slings," Bradberry said. "When you release a 3,000 bag of sand the sling goes with it."

Reily said the corps is also working with the Orleans Sewerage and Water Board and the Orleans Levee Board on efforts to close the entrance to the canal from Lake Pontchrartrain. In the last day three barges of rock have been brought into the lake to help with that effort.

Also, U.S. Sen. David Vitter, R-La., said he has spoken with President Bush, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., and Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., about putting together a "major" financial relief package for Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama when Congress returns from its August recess next week.

"Everyone gets it. This isn't simply a bad hurricane," Vitter said. "This is an ongoing challenge and an ongoing situation which takes enormous response, including enormous federal response."

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakin...08.html#075446

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by David

I guess New Orleans was one of the country's most picturesque, charming cities, & certainly people loved it far & wide. But from an engineer's perspective, it was a 300-year-old mistake. Building a city on the coastline below sea level is a grave error -- on this coastline, especially, because there is an expected 3-foot rise in sea level over the next few years.

I wonder where Louisianans are going to rebuild. If they had any sense, the whole area would be revamped for port facilities, the wetlands & other natural buffers would be restored, & the infrastructure would be rebuilt on higher ground. Maybe borrow some engineering ideas from the Dutch, who have mastered the craft of sophisticated dikes.

I think I posted something a few months ago about nature: something about not challenging it because it will usually win. If you put people & development on a coastline below sea level, you kill them just as if you had fired a rifle at them.

They tried for years, but the politicians were crooked, pockets were lined, etc. The most startlingly obvious solution would have been the raise and reinforce the levees with steel and then have back up levees behind them. But, the plans never got executed.

here are some pretty cool background articles

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...11/ai_68642805

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/bcarre/pastflood.htm

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/prj/fi...hool/index.htm



Interestingly, there is no safe place to build a city. Natural disasters can happen just about anywhere

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Interestingly, there is no safe place to build a city. Natural disasters can happen just about anywhere

Well yeah - but the risk is greater in certain areas....New Mexico doesn't have severe weather - save Tornados near Texas/Oklahoma

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Interestingly, there is no safe place to build a city. Natural disasters can happen just about anywhere

hit by 3 tornadoes in a span of 5 years (Moore is a suburb of OKC, Estimated population 85,000 ) and each time the tornado took the same identical paths of destruction

[estranged4life]

will be speaking at any moment now about Hurricane Katrina.

[amber]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Interestingly, there is no safe place to build a city. Natural disasters can happen just about anywhere

Some places are expotentially more moronic than others, though. Most cities were built a long time ago, though, so it's understandable. However, what they haven't done since they've had the knowledge to do so is unforgivable. I am dumbfounded when I hear how many buildings here are not retrofitted for earthquakes. I am dumbfounded to hear what was not done in NO. A city below sea level, in the gulf?! hurricane central?! Criminal.
Also, I'd like to note, I can't think of any natural disaster that has ever befallen my hometown....

[Livia]

This may have been posted already, but I don't have time to read thru this whole thread.

I also just wanted to add my 2 cents: the looting is pissing me off - our government not rushing to aid these people is pissing me off - which in turn, makes me less pissed about the looters who stole food only - I watched some news coverage at lunchtime and I am heartbroken, to see one of my favorite cities in such a state of destruction...saw a story in Biloxi, MS: It took the Red Cross 2 days to get food and water to these folks. That's inexcusable to me! How much is the war in Iraq costing us??? Grrrr.......


Benefit concert Friday nite:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/08/3...ert/index.html

Benefits for hurricane victims

(CNN) -- Victims of Hurricane Katrina will be getting a little help from celebrities.

NBC Universal has scheduled "A Concert for Hurricane Relief," a benefit telethon to aid victims of Hurricane Katrina, the company announced in a press release Wednesday.

The hourlong show will air Friday on NBC, MSNBC and CNBC.

The concert will include country singer Tim McGraw, pianist and singer Harry Connick Jr. and jazz trumpeter Wynton Marsalis, all Louisiana natives. Matt Lauer will host.

Viewers will be encouraged to donate to the American Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund in support of hurricane relief, according to the press release.

Also Wednesday, a Morgan Freeman-organized auction of celebrity- and corporate-donated items was announced.

The auction, which includes a screening of Freeman's upcoming film, "An Unfinished Life," a resort getaway and memorabilia packages from various movies, will open Friday on the Charity Folks Web site. Proceeds will go the American Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund as well.

"It's sort of well-known that anytime any catastrophe happens anywhere in the world, they can count on the United States for help," Freeman told The Associated Press in a phone interview.

"Now, charity begins at home, so we call on anybody who has even the thought [of giving] to get beyond the thought and help these people," the 68-year-old actor said.

Freeman was born in Memphis, Tennessee, and lives in the Mississippi Delta. His property missed the hurricane's harshest damage, he told the AP.

Hurricane Katrina, which hit the Gulf Coast Monday morning, has devastated coastal regions of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama. The Hurricane damaged the southeast coast of Florida days earlier.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

My brother left on one of 500 boats going from Lafayette (about 100 West) on an emissary to help with the rescue operations. I am a little terrified for his safety. He is there though and was sobbing at the horror.

Dear God - Show us the way back.

I know how you feel - my boyfriend is on the way down as well because he works in crisis management with hurricanes. From what he says, all their research in this area could not reasonably predicted such total horror. He is not there yet, but is very nervous about what he will actually see while he is there. For sure, it will be a life changing event for him (maybe he will be scared sober . . .).

God bless and protect all those helping with this terrible crisis.