Has Fm.lb,sn Reached Their End?

[cbBen]

Joni Mitchell and Phil Collins more or less retired too.

Lindsey should reach out to Nonesuch. If his record is good, they'd pick it up. Otherwise New West.

In the eighties Stevie's, sales were based in part on her sex appeal. There are flashes of brilliance elsewhere, but I think Bella Donna and The Other Side Of The Mirror are her only through-and-through great solo albums.

Her voice has lost so much since The Dance.

The problem with Fleetwood Mac is they have ceased to be a band. Even their website has individual photos rather than a single group shot.

And they always are trying to look dark and mysterious. Lindsey is especially guilty here. They don't need an "image." They need to find a way to enjoy each other, or call it a day and just be solo artists. They should smile for the camera like Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers do and look like they are having fun rather than they like have something to prove. They've already proven it.

At the beginning of Destiny Rules, Lindsey asks to John something along the lines of "ready to show these young punks hot to play?" See? Something to prove. Chip on the shoulder. You think Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers get together to prove anything to anybody? They enjoy playing together and Fleetwood Mac could learn a thing or two from them in this regard.

And Lindsey needs to learn that Stevie is the star power. In Destiny Rules he keeps going on about how much more work he's put into the project, as though his doing so should give him more political power in the band dynamic. Wrong! Stevie is the star power. You think she faces the problems Lindsey does getting a record deal outside Fleetwood Mac? Lindsey seemed to forget that the reason that Warners more or less insisted he rejoin Fleetwood Mac because his selling power outside the group was nil.

Lindsey is also the master of the false dilemma. It's either be progressive or you're a total sell out. There's no middle ground. He acts in Destiny Rules as though wanting to limit the album to eighty minutes is tantamount to "playing it safe" and "stifling creativity." The Beatles did the White Album with three--count 'em three--of the greatest songwriters ever all at the peak of their writing powers. Say You Will featured two writers both of whom were well past their peak. Lindsey is a great producer, but he resorts to tactics to get his way that are unfair.

Has Lindsey ever listened to an outside producer the way he would need to in order to keep Fleewtood Mac going for real? Are he and Stevie willing to get some lyricists to help them.? The title track to Say You Will had a great melody but the lyrics needed work. And "everyone's gone to the moon" is such a bad line that it ruins an otherwise good song. When Dear Mr. President covered the song, they pointedly left out the line -- even though it was the centerpiece of the chorus!

This band could make it but they need to become a "band" again and not Lindsey and Stevie sharing a rhythm section. Lindsey did add some great touches to Stevie's songs last time around. But his creative decisions regarding album length and his stubborn insistence that things like "Come" represent a step forward and anything else represent a sellout cost him and the band a great great deal.

That's my thirty-two cents.

[elle]

Originally Posted by cbBen

Lindsey should reach out to Nonesuch. If his record is good, they'd pick it up. Otherwise New West.

In the eighties Stevie's, sales were based in part on her sex appeal. ...

The problem with Fleetwood Mac is they have ceased to be a band. Even their website has individual photos rather than a single group shot. ...

And they always are trying to look dark and mysterious. Lindsey is especially guilty here. ...

At the beginning of Destiny Rules, Lindsey says to John ...

And Lindsey needs to learn ...

Lindsey is also the master of the false dilemma. ...

has Lindsey ever listened to an outside producer ...

This band could make it but they need to become a "band" again ...

That's my thirty-two cents.

you started constructive but wow - please don't hold back on lindsey-bashing

one of my pet peeves - why is there a requirement that everybody needs to have a stupid smiling grin on their faces / look happy? nobody should look natural anymore?

EDIT: sounds like lindsey's new CD will be incredible btw - have you had a chance to hear some of his new songs?

[cbBen]

No I haven't, but don't get me wrong. I LOVE Lindsey. I have all his solo albums and with the exception of the second one like them all.

I went to his solo shows and was blown away. I admire him tremendously as a writer and as a producer. Little Lies is one of the greatest productions of the eighties. No one else produces like he does. He is the band leader and has a legacy that will last an eternity. Plus he is probably one of the ten or twenty best guitar players ever.

But I think the way Lindsey *fails* to smile for the camera is unnatural. We're not talking about candid shots. Candid shots are a different story.

Lindsey is always trying to create a dark mood of some sort. As is the rest of the band -- look at the photos on their website. These are posed photos and are so gloomy.

If you look at Petty & The Heartbreakers they aren't smiling unnaturally -- they're really happy.

Lindsey wants to get his way, but he uses cheap tricks and does not have the best sensibilities to boot. The best song on Say You Will is Steal Your Heart Away.

As I say he is the master of the false dilemma. It's either do it my way or you're playing it safe and stifling creativity. Red Rover and Come are not giant leaps forward. Steal Your Heart Away is a giant leap forward. But he needn't have spent ten years producing it. The live version from the Soundstage DVD is better than the studio version that took a decade and a half a dozen overdubs to produce.

If he would just get out of his own way and embrace Stevie for her strengths rather than try to compete with her you might have a really great band, rather than a couple solo artists sharing a rhythm section and a band name.


P.S. Lindsey also tends to carry a victim mentality. The "faceless corporate record industry" is always working against him. He is lucky that, thanks to Fleetwood Mac, he will always have a platform for his music. But instead of recognizing this good fortune, he is always complaining. Did you see that documentary called "It's Not Too Late" about the shopping of Under The Skin? Why wasn't Lindsey himself at those meetings instead of waiting at home for the record companies to "do the right thing"? Doesn't he realize they have all the right in the world to pass on his record?

And he quit after just a half a dozen or so rejections, because his ego couldn't take it anymore. That's not how one shops a record. Even the greatest records can take thirty rejections before getting an offer. Many great records get no offers at all. Warners was at least up front with him that they were not going to offer a big promotion push or tour support. That was very forthcoming of them and demonstrated a lot of integrity. They wouldn't have released it at all if it weren't for his name value.

[elle]

Originally Posted by cbBen

But I think the way Lindsey *fails* to smile for the camera is unnatural. We're not talking about candid shots. Candid shots are a different story.
...
If you look at Petty & The Heartbreakers they aren't smiling unnaturally -- they're really happy.

see, i don't agree with that. nobody is naturally happy posing over and over for the stupid picture while saying "cheese". i did not grow up in the US, and you can see it in the posed photos of me - i'm gloomy in them:. but my kids are growing up here and from their earliest age they learned how to look "happy" in the posed photos. so yes, i don't understand it - i don't understand why you'd need to look artificially happy when it might be more interesting to see whatever face person wants to make at the time of the picture taking. i love some of LB's gloomy photos, and i love that he's resisting overwhelming happy-looking trend of photos. (getting off my soap box now)

Originally Posted by cbBen

Red Rover and Come are not giant leaps forward. Steal Your Heart Away is a giant leap forward. But he needn't have spent ten years producing it. The live version from the Soundstage DVD is better than the studio version that took a decade and a half a dozen overdubs to produce.

If he would just get out of his own way and embrace Stevie for her strengths rather than try to compete with her you might have a really great band, rather than a couple solo artists sharing a rhythm section and a band name.

i don't agree with SYHA being a great leap fw, and i don't like the live version on soundstage - i think it falls flat. but i love all 3 songs you mentioned, and i'm amazed how totally different they are from each other. took me a while to get used to the fact that LB doesn't necessarily have a "style" of music but he's all over the place. and i still think that it is not his fault that GOS1 was held back, it was WB. he's to blame for holding OOTC back, WB is to blame that we didn't get the almost-perfection that is GOS1 in 1998 or 2001, and that these songs got parsed out on SYW, and solo albums after that.

re him working w/ the rest of the mac as the band, he expressed that desire many times starting during the time right before UL - that they should just get in the studio and work on the album all together and see what happens. i'm still hoping that will happen, and it might work with dave stewart as a catalyst.

Originally Posted by cbBen

P.S. Lindsey also tends to carry a victim mentality. The "faceless corporate record industry" is always working against him. He is lucky that, thanks to Fleetwood Mac, he will always have a platform for his music. But instead of recognizing this good fortune, he is always complaining. and demonstrated a lot of integrity.

i agree that he likes to play a victim - one has to go no further than listening to his Tusk songs, where that culminated (and then there's Underground) - but who cares, they are such great songs! however, i think he has grown a lot and his big machine-small machine talk symbolizes him recognizing what he has in FM.

Originally Posted by cbBen

Did you see that documentary called "It's Not Too Late" about the shopping of Under The Skin?

oh yeah that doc is the culmination of his "my sh*t doesn't stink" mentality imo - i think it's a horribly and embarrassingly bad doc, with such bad acting and his narrated "deep" thoughts (everybody seems to be in agreement that phone calls are fake/acted - although they probably happened somewhat like that). home movies may be nice and interesting, but you have to acquire some critical distance before putting the doc out. i am glad lindsey seems to have learned from that experience and has this time around hired professional team to record the making of the CD doc, as well as professional photographer.

i am also glad that lindsey seems to have finally gotten over the attitude about needing to have a label, and has realized that he can do whatever he wants - put the CD out on his own, or go small label route.

[michelej1]

I think the smile premise is faulty to begin with. I don't think Lindsey fails to smile at the camera at all. A stroll through the photo thread in the LB section will confirm that. He smiles, he goofs around. He's got a variety of moods in front of the lens and, I'd imagine, when the camera is off as well.

Michele

[henryscutter]

I was attempting to watch "not too late" the other day, did he not think it should be somewhat entertaining to those who watch it?

[McTrouble]

Originally Posted by henryscutter

I was attempting to watch "not too late" the other day, did he not think it should be somewhat entertaining to those who watch it?

No, he wanted us to feel his angst

[cbBen]

I must agree with what you say about the cultural phenomenon of smiling for the camera. I often joke that if we become extinct and an alien race discovers our photos, they will say what a happy group we must have been.

But those website photos say everything that is wrong with the band. They are trying to convey some sort of mysterious attitude. If you look at Elvis Costello on the covers of his first two albums, he is not smiling for the camera, but he is conveying a quirky personality that is all his own.

Do you think that picture of Stevie on the website reflects who she is as a person. Do you think any of their photos do as much?

And Lindsey's photo on the cover of Under The Skin has the same problem. It is is pensive, arty, and dark in a way that is too generic. No he needn't "say cheese," but if I were offering him some guidance I would have him at least be more relaxed for these album covers and promo shots.

If the band wants an identity, it needs to be a band again. Again Destiny Rules: Lindsey says something along the lines of "now all we need is Stevie's presence on my material and then we will be done with this house." Her "presence" on the material? It is as though he just wanted her on the material so it could be Fleetwood Mac in name.

He should have re-cut "Say Goodbye" instead of pasting her on top of his sped-up solo version. It would have worked much better (just look at Live In Boston or Soundstage). Say Goodbye is a great great Lindsey song but he should have either left it for Under The Skin, or re-cut it with Stevie to make it feel like an integrated piece of work. The center channel mix of Steal Your Heart Away proves what great work she did on that song (that "if that's all there is" she throws in there at the end). But it's completely buried in the mix! Again, all he was after was her "presence" on the material. There is only one Stevie Nicks and, even with her voice in its worsened shape, she has something unique to offer to Lindsey's material -- if he will let her.

That album could have been really great if Lindsey had made some better choices. It could have been a ten song album, with Down On Rodeo, that would have really held up. To think that Lindsey was fighting to make it even longer than it is makes me shudder. And to hear Tony Dimitrades defending that position reveals his willingness to do Lindsey's bidding, but behind closed doors I hope he gave Lindsey different advice.

A good manager should be anything but a yes-person. A good producer should be the same, which is why Lindsey needs one. Left to his own devices, he falls victim to, well, his own devices. Maybe Richard Dashut played more of a role than we realized.

On a technical level, however, I must say I am in awe of Lindsey. Everything about "Show Me How" is great, right down to that trippy minute-long coda.

[markolas]

They haven't been "actual relevant players on the music charts" in 20 years. Why are all your posts so trollish?

[DallasDude]

Any future Mac CD would have to include Christine to some degree for it to carry any chance of being a success. I don't care if she doesn't tour, that's irrelevant to making beautiful music for the world to enjoy for years.

All this lip service about if Chris' songs were hits, she would be forced to tour is BS. Just make sure you do not release her tracks as singles! Then there is no pressure to perform them live. But not having a couple of songs and her harmonies on SYW just made that CD a Buckingham/Nicks project in my book, and not very memorable outside a few choice songs.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by DallasDude

All this lip service about if Chris' songs were hits, she would be forced to tour is BS. Just make sure you do not release her tracks as singles! Then there is no pressure to perform them live. But not having a couple of songs and her harmonies on SYW just made that CD a Buckingham/Nicks project in my book, and not very memorable outside a few choice songs.

I agree that Christine was needed, badly, on SYW. I still get goosebumps when I hear all three of them on Bleed To Love Her and Steal Your Heart Away; they still sound magical together. Even though Christine never changes, and Lindsey and Stevie's voices have declined; together, they still pack a potent punch.

I disagree that SYW wasn't memorable, though. When it was good; it was really good. But when it was bad... I think there are still many fans who are out for blood after what happened to Smile At You, and many who thought Stevie had lost the plot with Silver Girl. But, at the same time, there are those who loved those two songs and will defend them to the death. It might not have been as brilliant as their 70s/80s albums, but it was certainly memorable. Even if it was for some bad reasons.

[cbBen]

For what it's worth I think Smile At You is one of the real high points of the album, and that Lindsey's production touches are brilliant. The way he echoes phrases such as "fast as I can" made it an integrated piece.

In my book that track is what demonstrates that the group does have potential to be an integrated unit, and not just a band in name only I was unaware that a number of people are down on that track. Why so, may I ask?

[henryscutter]

Originally Posted by cbBen

For what it's worth I think Smile At You is one of the real high points of the album, and that Lindsey's production touches are brilliant. The way he echoes phrases such as "fast as I can" made it an integrated piece.

In my book that track is what demonstrates that the group does have potential to be an integrated unit, and not just a band in name only I was unaware that a number of people are down on that track. Why so, may I ask?

Because the demo = Awesome

[David]

Originally Posted by cbBen

The problem with Fleetwood Mac is they have ceased to be a band.

And Lindsey needs to learn that Stevie is the star power. In Destiny Rules he keeps going on about how much more work he's put into the project, as though his doing so should give him more political power in the band dynamic. Wrong! Stevie is the star power.

Forcing an equivalence between externals (star power) & internals (intraband politics) is the quickest way to destroy a band. The egos in a rock band are about as fragile as egos can be. Everyone is hypersensitive about his contributions. If you don't think that there's a direct correlation between the amount of work Band Member X does inside the group & his or her standing or input within the group, you've lost it. When the biggest star happens to be the person who does the least in the studio or even onstage (both have always been true in Stevie's case), that's going to create an insuperable obstacle of resentment. When getting together with your band is prickly & unpleasant, you're not going to bother doing so. That's why Fleetwood Mac went for years without working together, & why they still do so today.

So if you want Fleetwood Mac to "be a band again," it would be foolish to insist that Stevie Nicks be given the leveraging power within the band solely because she has the highest profile & biggest fan base outside the group. I've seen it happen a million times, & I've even experienced it directly: When the wrong person gets to make the decisions for the band, it fractures.

[David]

Originally Posted by DallasDude

Any future Mac CD would have to include Christine to some degree for it to carry any chance of being a success.

Do you mean an artistic success or a commercial success? If Chris rejoined the group, Mac fans would probably love the results & the feeling of closure. But the rest of the world isn't hanging around waiting for Chris McVie to rejoin Fleetwood Mac. The rest of the world doesn't care anymore. It isn't 1978.

A hypothetical Mac album with Chris wouldn't be any more likely to sell millions than one with just LB & SN writing & singing.