Brexit vote

[MoonSister75]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

I'd say turn off the news for awhile. And forget about it.
Unless you have investments to tend to, just enjoy the time
with your daughter.

Yes very true, and important advice. I deliberately haven't put the TV or Radio on this morning, just read this thread and small amount of news on the internet.

Its just such a big shock for the country as a whole, and I just know so many people that will be affected by this.

edit... bleak was probably the wrong word, shocked and saddened is probably more appropriate. We will definitely still enjoy our day.

[SisterNightroad]

This is a very hot topic for me because a lot of University studets and new graduates that I know, since here jobs don't exist, have headed or decided to head to England. My bestfriend wanted to go to England. My sister has to accompany some High.school students to England this summer. This changes everything for them. I know people who are currently in Britain that have been downright mistreated because they're Italian. And I know that to go to England as a University student you have meet impossible standards, not only have top notch grades, and in the meantime you have to work. I heard a girl yesterday say that a friend of her in Oxford has been cornered by an UKIP madwoman. There's been tension for students for a long while and now it's even worse. I'm worried for those who are in Britain or have to go there.

[becca]

The 'Leave' leaders don't seem to be doing that much, maybe they didn't expect to win either? They definitely need to appeal to the humanity in people after possibly arousing (or pandering to) the mob in them. Even if, ludicrous though it seems, some Italian or Polish person did something somebody didn't like, got something someone else was envious of, what does this have to do with being uncivil or rude to others. There really is no excuse but some will go to great lengths to find an excuse unfortunately.

While I say just knowing what's going on is doing something, yes, you have to focus on the immediate sometimes to for balance. I'm blessed I have a yard with butterflies and deer and squirrels (who so far as I can tell have yet to damage the house in any way and become 'varmints').

Oh, I heard the oldsters are worried about the NHS which is understandable, but they think that money that went to the EU will go into that now which seems overly optimistic. Somebody hasn't been doing their job though if there is a lack of doctors and nurses... we have the same problems here though and I don't think anyone has tied it in to immigration. In fact immigration is seen as a solution but with the red tape and unions we have foreign trained medical people driving taxis.

[MoonSister75]

Is there hope?!?

I'm reminded here that there is always hope

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ommons-website


Petition to hold second EU referendum reaches 2m signatures

House of Commons website sees unprecedented traffic for record-breaking petition

Round two? The Commons website crashed after experiencing a higher volume of simultaneous users than ever before.

James Tapper

Saturday 25 June 2016 18.23 BST Last modified on Saturday 25 June 2016 18.47 BST

The backlash against Brexit has strengthened with more than 2 million people signed a parliamentary petition calling for a second EU referendum.

Demand for a fresh vote was so high that it crashed the parliament.uk website on Friday as the petition was shared widely on social media and new signatures were added at a rate of more than 100,000 an hour.

By 6pm on Saturday, more than 146,000 people had signed another petition calling on the London mayor to declare the capital independent from the UK so that it could stay in the EU, with supporters tweeting under the hashtag #londependence.

Senior Labour figures also called for parliament to overturn the referendum result. David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, said: “Wake up. We do not have to do this. We can stop this madness and bring this nightmare to an end through a vote in parliament. Our sovereign parliament needs to now vote on whether we should exit the EU.

“The referendum was an advisory, non-binding referendum. The leave campaign’s platform has already unravelled and some people wish they hadn’t voted to leave. Parliament now needs to decide whether we should go forward with Brexit and there should be a vote in parliament next week.

“Let us not destroy our economy on the basis of lies and the hubris of Boris Johnson.”

The petition for a second EU referendum was set up by William Oliver Healey on 25 May. He wrote: “We the undersigned call upon HM government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based on a turnout less than 75%, there should be another referendum.”

A parliament.uk map showed support for a second referendum was strongest in urban constituencies including Bristol West, Hornsey and Wood Green, and Jeremy Corbyn’s Islington North constituency, where more than 10,000 people signed the petition.
The lowest appetite was in Scotland, where some constituencies showed fewer than 500 supporters, although these areas have sparser populations on the whole.

Parliament must consider all petitions that reach a threshold of 100,000 votes. Few, however, reach 200,000. The most popular previous petition, with 823,346 signatories asking the government to give meningitis B vaccines to all children. A petition calling for Donald Trump to be barred from the UK was signed by 586,935 people.

In London, a growing number of people have been backing a debate about the future of the capital, where 70% rejected Brexit. Within 24 hours the petition on Change.org had been signed by more than 120,000 people, who backed freelance writer James O’Malley’s call: “Declare London independent from the UK and apply to join the EU”.

Supporter John Gowers wrote: “In a typical year, London contributes £10bn to £20bn to the rest of the UK and receives nothing in return. London has no control over its borders while it remains a member of the UK.”

[SisterNightroad]

There's a slight similarity of style between Boris Johnson and Donald Trump.

[MoonSister75]

I detected a fairly quiet, sombre mood around this area today. Certainly no feeling of celebration, just one of shock. The adults didn't look like they were having much fun at the fun-day I attended, although thankfully the kids were. People seemed to be having difficulty even talking about the result of this vote, although I did manage to talk to a few friends about it. I'm sure there's a general sense of "what the f*ck have we done?" and fear about what will happen to the country now.

In the midst of my despair today I heard a Radio 4 comedy programme on the car radio which had me in fits of laughter. Basically a very good piss take of politicians (including Boris and Donald) and others involved in this campaign. Here's the link for anyone is interested and can access it, it starts at 03.50. It was great laughter therapy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07glx81

[Mr Scarrott]

Another day gone after this disaster and if anything I feel worse. I chatted to a good friend on the phone who has always been an EU-sceptic but who always saw the value of the aim of the Four Freedoms- the freedom of goods, services, capital and workers to circulate throughout the EU. I actually broke down in tears again and couldn't carry on with the call.

Aghast at the tone of the campaign, he had decided that the only noble thing for him to do was to abstain from voting. He had sent me this text:


What a bittersweet victory. I always wanted this but not this way, not for these reasons. I feel a bit like an Italian who just wanted the trains to run on time and got Mussolini.

And now we face the heightened possibilty of losing Scotland from our own United Kingdom with the Scottish Labour party considering all options.

The European Union has its faults, but I was always proud to have an element of shared citizenship with people from Ireland to Cyprus , from Spain to Estonia, from Finland to
Malta. I face losing that now. For we English to lose our shared citizenship with the Scots would be unbearable.

There is however, some hope to avoid Brexit here. If Scottish Labour threatens to advocate independence, it could blackmail the Tories at Westminster to abandon Brexit in order to save the United Kingdom. It could backfire, but it is our only hope.

[Macfanforever]

Whats going to happen with the PM position as David Cameron steps down..

[Mr Scarrott]

Cameron is staying on as caretaker Prime Minister until the Conservative party elects a new leader. I hope that Theresa May, the Home Secretary gets it. This would at least deny the opportunist Boris Johnson the prize he so clearly craved. He only supported Brexit to try to get the top job.

Conservative MPs choose two candidates to put to the party membership as a whole. If Johnson is one of those he may get it as Conservative party members are generally more pro Brexit than the party's MPs. Theresa May would be a better bet and has proven herself to be a competent Home Secretary and could unify the party more effectively.

I'm not a Conservative, by the way.

[MoonSister75]

As I sat watching a performance of Peter Pan last night by a local dance school, I looked around the audience in their pensive post referendum mood, as well as watching the children on the stage. With sadness and dismay, I kept thinking of the influence that the pro-brexit voters have had on the future of our children and what it has done to their country. Anyway I just read this article and it seemed relevant to my thoughts, (particularly the photo and caption at the top of the article)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...s-brexit-grave


We need a second referendum. The consequences of Brexit are too grave

David Lammy

Economic disaster and the destruction of the union with Scotland loom. At the very least we need another vote

Young anti-Brexit protesters outside Downing Street, 25 June 2016: ‘Are we going to let our links with the outside world be cast aside, leaving our children to grow up without the same opportunities for travel, study and cultural exchange that my generation has taken for granted?’ Photograph: Isabel Infantes/PA


Leadership is about tough choices. Politics is about standing up for what you believe in, and as a member of parliament it is about standing up for your constituents – three-quarters of mine voted to remain in the European Union and they will be the first to suffer when the post-Brexit recession hits.

The impact of an economic downturn on my constituents is too devastating to contemplate. The impact will be similarly catastrophic across whole swaths of our country, especially in areas that are already struggling. In the manmade recession to follow, the worse off you are, the worse your future will be.

We need to get real, quickly: $2tn was wiped off global markets on Friday; the pound has plummeted; and Moody’s has already downgraded our credit rating from “stable” to “negative”. A Brexit would be self-immolation.

Nigel Farage and his gang of Brexiteers would have never quit or given up the fight on the basis of a result that was this close. You can’t write off 48% of voters without a serious fight, and we cannot usher in rule by plebiscite which unleashes the “wisdom” of resentment and prejudice reminiscent of 1930s Europe.

Are we simply going to stand idly by and let a recession caused by the hubris of Boris Johnson push more and more people into poverty? Are we going to let our links with the outside world be cast aside, leaving our children to grow up without the same opportunities for travel, study and cultural exchange that my generation have taken for granted?

Since Friday morning Britain has woken up to a hangover of nightmarish proportions. We could all see from the look on the faces of Johnson and Michael Gove that they know that they will be managing a perpetual decline in our economy and our national standing and reputation.

It is very clear that the leave campaigners do not have the slightest semblance of a plan. The promises that the campaign was built on were nothing more than a pack of lies. Before bedtime on Friday the claims about £350m extra cash to spend on public services and the ending of free movement of labour had already unravelled before our eyes.

The future of our country, of our young people and of their children and grandchildren is too much to throw away on the basis of a duplicitous campaign that has already fallen apart.

It is clear that people are angry with the political class and that, with the European Union coming to represent everything that is wrong with our country, they took this opportunity to give the establishment a kicking. But is Johnson going to care about these disaffected people who feel left out and let down? Not a jot. We are slowly waking up to the fact that the emperor has no clothes. Is a post-Brexit government going to inject money into the areas that lose out on employers and investment because we leave the European Union? Not a chance in hell.

The referendum was advisory and non-binding, in contrast to the referendum on electoral reform in 2011 which imposed a legal obligation on the government to legislate. Almost 500 members of parliament declared themselves in favour of remain, and it is within their powers to stop this madness through a vote in parliament.

It is also within parliament’s powers to call a second referendum, now that the dust has begun to settle and the reality of a post-Brexit nation is coming into view. We need a second referendum at the very least, on the basis of a plan that is yet to even be drawn up.

Since the referendum it has also become apparent that if the UK leaves the European Union the break-up of the union will swiftly follow if Scotland gains independence and Northern Ireland is unified with the Republic of Ireland. Are we ready and willing to dismantle our nation? We weren’t asked this, and it was not a factor widely considered by voters on Thursday.

Of course we must recognise what has happened and address the decades of decline in the regions that voted leave which are the root cause of the backlash we have seen. We need to rebalance our economy and our country by devolving power away from Westminster and bolstering investment and opportunities away from London and the south-east.

Nevertheless the consequences of exiting Europe are grave. I have a simple message to all those who believe in remaining in Europe. We have to fight for our economic future, for our children’s future and for the country that we want to be. Speak out, sign the petition and tell your MP to ask for a vote.

[MoonSister75]

Also more news on Nicola Sturgeon

Nicola Sturgeon: Scottish parliament could block Brexit

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...erendum-brexit

Who knows what will happen from here

[MoonSister75]

I listened to a government official say yesterday (in a very shaky voice) that they have nowhere near the amount of resources, skills, people etc necessary to implement this change. I can't even begin to think of the mountains of work needed to change all the policies and procedures to un-link us from the EU, after 40 years of building the relationship to its current position.

[Macfan4life]

Originally Posted by MoonSister75

I listened to a government official say yesterday (in a very shaky voice) that they have nowhere near the amount of resources, skills, people etc necessary to implement this change. I can't even begin to think of the mountains of work needed to change all the policies and procedures to un-link us from the EU, after 40 years of building the relationship to its current position.

I don't think the EU cares much about that. They want Great Britian out immediately. Part punishment and part warning to other members. The economic turmoil will be felt immediately and it will be harsh. The EU wants a poster child for leaving. They will not accept a gradual leave.

Most people vote emotions. We have that here in the states too. I imagine myself a Brit and how I would have voted. Yes, it would feel good to tell Europe "screw you", feel independent, cause attention, and feel powerful. But what price? To leave one of the worlds largest trading blocks, cause a 10 year economic crisis, downgrade the credit for the country, raise interest rates to borrow money, freeze any international investments in the country, and slow GNP. Do the older people not want to give their children a stronger country?
That "feel good" feeling after voting to leave would not last very long. The word globalization has such a negative context. But we need eachother. Look at Argentina. For decades they stopped imports and said the country will be strong by only making and buying products made in Argentina. Euros and dollars were forbidden because of the evils of "globalization." The country turned inward away from the global stage. It is all nationalistic and sounds like heaven. Argentina plummeted into economic chaos. Foreign investment ran away faster than ever. After decades of this nonsense the country finally elected a new conservative leader who is bringing change, opening Argentina, paying debts, etc.


We have that in the United States too. Trump stands for nothing but rage and anger. He has no principles except for himself and has been on every side of every issue about 10 times. 20% of Bernie Sanders voters say they will vote Trump. Those are the emotional voters who don't have principles but only rage. Bernie Sanders and Trump have nothing in common and Bernie has fought his entire life against people like Trump. But even Sanders's voters are full of rage. There is no way a government can give away free stuff to its people and sustain a 17 trillion dollar debt. Everyone is pissed off but you don't burn down Rome because it feels good. You will have to live with the consequences. A Trump victory would drop world markets worse than the Brexit vote. Trade wars would begin with China and China finances the debt of the United States. China definitely has the upper hand since they own part of us. Americans would lose another 20% in the IRA's. But hey at least 45% of Americans don't care and will vote for Trump. That number will probably go up but that is a base for him. We are living in a scary time where people actually intend to cause harm to their own country to make political points.

[MoonSister75]

It looks like those in power are trying to slow things down

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-article-50-eu


Will article 50 ever be triggered?
The PM has said he will hand the task of starting the Brexit process to his successor, giving hope to remain supporters

Jon Henley in Brussels


@jonhenley

Sunday 26 June 2016 14.04 BST Last modified on Sunday 26 June 2016 18.00 BST

When David Cameron delivered his resignation speech outside No 10 on Friday, he said he would leave the task of triggering article 50 of the Lisbon treaty – the untested procedure governing how an EU member state leaves the bloc – to his successor.

This has prompted much speculation – and a glimmer of hope for those who want Britain to remain in the European Union. Cameron, they argue, had repeatedly said during the campaign that article 50 would be triggered immediately if Vote Leave were to win the Brexit referendum.

By not doing so, the theory is, and by bequeathing the responsibility to whoever succeeds him, Cameron has handed the next prime minister a poisoned chalice. Given the dramatic reaction to Brexit – on world stock markets, on the foreign exchanges, in Scotland, across Europe – and with the enormity of the consequences of leaving the EU now plain, who will dare pull the trigger?

One consequence of this, as a below-the-line commenter argued on the Guardian website, is that Cameron has effectively snookered the Brexit camp: they may have won the referendum, but they cannot use the mandate they have been given because if they do so they will be seen to be knowingly condemning the UK to recession, breakup and years of pain.

This could mean, as lawyer and writer David Allen Green has suggested in a blogpost, that “the longer article 50 notification is put off, the greater the chance it will never be made ... As long as the notification is not sent, the UK remains part of the EU. And there is currently no reason or evidence to believe that, regardless of the referendum result, the notification will be sent at all.”

Is this feasible? Certainly, leading Brexit campaigners, including Boris Johnson and Matthew Elliott, who ran Vote Leave, have said very clearly they are in no hurry to push the button.

They argue it is far more sensible to hold informal talks with Brussels, and other member states, in order to arrive at the outline of a possible settlement before locking Britain into the strict two-year timeframe within which article 50 negotiations must be concluded (and if they are not, Britain risks having to leave the EU with no deal at all).

In Brussels and other EU capitals, the UK’s heel-dragging is already causing great frustration. European foreign ministers and EU leaders have lined up this weekend to impress on Britain the need for urgency. Brexit talks must begin “immediately”, they said, so as to avoid a sustained period of uncertainty and instability that, with Euroscepticism on the rise across the continent, could do great damage to the already weakened bloc.

But there seems to be no immediate legal means out of the stalemate. It is entirely up to the departing member state to trigger article 50, by issuing formal notification of intention to leave: no one, in Brussels, Berlin or Paris, can force it to. But equally, there is nothing in article 50 that obliges the EU to open talks – including the informal talks the Brexit leaders want – before formal notification has been made.

“There is no mechanism to compel a state to withdraw from the European Union,” said Kenneth Armstrong, professor of European law at Cambridge University. “Article 50 is there to allow withdrawal, but no other party has the right to invoke article 50, no other state or institution. While delay is highly undesirable politically, legally there is nothing that can compel a state to withdraw.”

The president of the European parliament, Martin Schulz, has said he expects Cameron to initiate the process on Tuesday evening, making the formal announcement that Britain intends to exit the EU at the summit dinner he is due to address before going home and leaving – for the first time – the other 27 member states to discuss Britain’s situation without him the following day.

The European council has confirmed that notification does not have to be in writing, but could be in the form of a formal statement to the summit – so Cameron had better be careful about what exactly he says.

But reports in German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung, among others, that an increasingly frustrated EU could, if push comes to shove, decide to consider the referendum result itself as “an official wish to leave” seem unreliable. “The notification of article 50 is a formal act and has to be done by the British government to the European council,” an EU official told Reuters.

“It has to be done in an unequivocal manner, with the explicit intent to trigger article 50. Negotiations to leave and on the future relationship can only begin after such a formal notification. If it is indeed the intention of the British government to leave the EU, it is therefore in its interest to notify as soon as possible.”

Carl Bildt, the former Swedish prime minister, has said “de facto ejection” is a possibility unless Britain gets a move on, but it is unclear on what grounds that could happen. Article 7 of the Lisbon treaty allows the EU to suspend a member if it deems it to be in breach of basic principles of freedom, democracy, equality and rule of law. But that would be the nuclear option.

The situation could get quite nasty, quite quickly. Politically, the pressure on Cameron – and on his successor, whoever that may be – could be extreme. But legally, there does not appear to be any easy way out. If Britain so chooses, this could become a standoff that could drag on for years.

[MoonSister75]

And this too..

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ndum-heseltine

Parliamentary fightback against Brexit on cards

Pro-remain figures urge second EU referendum, with Lord Heseltine pointing to majority in Commons against leaving

Michael Heseltine is calling for a cross-party group of MPs to ‘articulate the case for Britain rethinking the result of the referendum’. Photograph: Andy Hall for the Observer


Anushka Asthana Political editor

Sunday 26 June 2016 17.10 BST Last modified on Sunday 26 June 2016 19.26 BST

The prospect of a parliamentary fightback against the result of the EU referendum gathered pace on Sunday, with pro-remain figures saying they would not “roll over and give up”.

Some are urging a second referendum after Brexit negotiations have taken place.

Lord Heseltine has pointed to the practicalities of an overwhelming majority in the House of Commons against leaving the EU. “There is a majority of something like 350 in the House of Commons broadly in favour of the European relationship,” he said.

“There is no way you are going to get those people to say black is white and change their minds unless a) they know what the deal is and b) it has been supported either by an election or by another referendum,” Heseltine told Sky News. “So there’s a dramatic urgency to get on with the negotiations.

He called for a cross-party group of MPs to look at the options and “articulate the case for Britain rethinking the result of the referendum”.

Earlier, Tony Blair, the former prime minister, said nothing should be ruled out. “As I’m looking at it here, I can’t see how we can do that. But, you know, the point is, why rule anything out right now?” Blair said the nation needed to consider the consequences of Brexit over the coming weeks and months.

But he added: “I can’t see how you would go through all of the mechanics of another referendum now, I just can’t see it.”

Tim Farron, the Liberal Democrat leader, said his party would not “roll over and give up” over the issue, pledging to fight the next general election on a manifesto promise to take Britain back into the EU. “We are determined to speak to the values that 16 million voted for, and many of the 17 million as well, that Britain is an outward-looking country, not one that isolates itself,” he told the Guardian. “Like all my predecessors I will stand committed to the UK being in the EU.”

Farron said the party recognised the legitimacy of the referendum but would not give up.

Farron’s view is backed up by Labour MP, David Lammy, who said he wanted to meet the Lib Dem leader to discuss the issue. “Economic disaster and the destruction of the union with Scotland loom,” Lammy said. “At the very least we need another vote.”

Writing in the Guardian, Lammy said: “The referendum was advisory and non-binding, in contrast to the referendum on electoral reform in 2011, which imposed a legal obligation on the government to legislate. Almost 500 members of parliament declared themselves in favour of remain, and it is within their powers to stop this madness through a vote in parliament.

“It is also within parliament’s powers to call a second referendum, now that the dust has begun to settle and the reality of a post-Brexit nation is coming into view. We need a second referendum at the very least, on the basis of a plan that is yet to even be drawn up.”