Just Skimmed Through STORMS

[danax6]

Originally Posted by carol7lynn

And, just as another poster observed, her book does not shed any new light on the Stevie and Lindsey story, so that we may get a better idea of whether or not the two will eventually get back together again.

Is that honestly what you expected from this book?

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

hey i said the same thing too!!!!

True and I am a cad

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

True and I am a cad

i feel so validated now!! i think i'll write a book about it...

[sarafield]

I read the book (skimming some parts) and have to say something really struck me. She is constantly touting her sarcastic sense of humor - her great sense of humor - in the book. Is there even a photo of her anywhere with a big smile? There must be, but I haven't seen it. She looks downright morose in every photo I've ever seen, and in the Japan footage God she just seems like a total personality-less downer. She's gorgeous, for sure, but this sparkling personality she supposedly had doesn't come through on camera. Unless someone's seen different, which is quite possible.

I also felt the book spent far too much time on the myriad instances of her and Lindsey making fun of Stevie. I think the whole band spent time making fun of Stevie - must have been hard not to, she sort of invites it sometimes and she was the "little sister" of the band - but seems like every few pages there is a passage about her and Lindsey laughing hysterically over ridiculous Stevie.

Perhaps Lindsey never did confide in CA over his feelings about Stevie - after all, "I'm not over my last girlfriend" isn't a really hot thing to say to one's current gf - but you'd think after eight years, they'd have had one serious conversation about Stevie. Lindsey, and everyone, KNEW about Stevie and Mick's affair while it was going on and no one cared? Really? CA and Lindsey never spoke about the fact that Stevie was bonking Mick? Really? How is this possible? I just find it hard to believe that two people, supposedly so in love, on cocaine all the time, never spoke about this.

[carol7lynn]

I stand by what I said. The woman has no morals. Excuses are meant to justify the unjustifiable. If you can't support a kid you shouldn't have them and there is no excuse for "accidental" pregnancies. I never wanted children and so I never got pregnant. Abstinence does work, and so does birth control. But you have to take responsibility for your body and educate yourself on how to effectively use it; especially if you can not afford to have a child.

Back in the 1970s, when I was in college, I didn't rely on the doctor at Planned Parenthood to educate me on how to avoid pregnancies, I went to the library and did my research. I wanted to have fun, travel, finish college and start a career so I "controlled" myself. And, I continued that practice all during my reproductive years as a married career woman and avoided accidents that way. Preventive medicine is always "less costly" than curative.

Responsible people know that, they alone, are accountable for their actions/behavior. That is what growing up is all about. If CA had been a minor at the time, I could have understood, her giving the child up for adoption so that she could finish school and establish herself in a legitimate career. But she had already left home, was shacking up with a man she hardly new (before moving in with him) and was un-apologetically engaging in felonious activities just to pay the rent and pay for her cigarettes.

Women like her make me ashamed of my own gender. Again, it's no wonder Stevie did not treat her like a "sister of the moon." Stevie had nothing to fear from this woman as she, like so many of her kind, blame everyone but themselves for what happens to them. She got what she asked for-kicked to the curb. The Stones wrote a song about her type in the 1960s which I find personifies CA to a T:

OUT OF TIME
(Jagger/Richards)

You don't know what's going on
You've been away for far too long
You can't come back and think you are still mine
You're out of touch, my baby
My poor discarded baby
I said, baby, baby, baby, you're out of time

Well, baby, baby, baby, you're out of time
I said, baby, baby, baby, you're out of time
You are all left out
Out of there without a doubt
'Cause baby, baby, baby, you're out of time

You thought you were a clever girl
Giving up your social whirl
But you can't come back and be the first in line, oh no
You're obsolete my baby
My poor old-fashioned baby
I said baby, baby, baby you're out of time


CarolC

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by carol7lynn

I stand by what I said. The woman has no morals....

Women like her make me ashamed of my own gender. Again, it's no wonder Stevie did not treat her like a "sister of the moon." Stevie had nothing to fear from this woman as she, like so many of her kind, blame everyone but themselves for what happens to them. She got what she asked for-kicked to the curb.

Wow, what a lovely non-judgmental person you are!

Yeah, no wonder Stevie didn't treat her like a "sister of the moon", Stevie didn't give up her unwanted babies up for adoption she just had abortions instead

Again, why are you reading this book? Just to fuel your hatred of this woman?

Btw, it really made me laugh that you posted lyrics by those bastions of morality, The Rolling Stones, to prove your point lol!

[lieueitak]

Originally Posted by carol7lynn

Excuses are meant to justify the unjustifiable. If you can't support a kid you shouldn't have them and there is no excuse for "accidental" pregnancies.

I don't understand how an unplanned pregnancy is "unjustifiable." I don't understand how anyone could believe that Carol Ann's child would be better off being raised by her. Her book may not be completely accurate, but I think we all know what kind of environment she would have exposed her child to, had she raised her: drugs, possible domestic violence, etc. It seems like Carol could barely take care of herself in any real way. How could anyone believe that child would be better off in that situation?

Abstinence does work, and so does birth control. But you have to take responsibility for your body and educate yourself on how to effectively use it; especially if you can not afford to have a child.

How is putting your child up for adoption not a form of taking responsibility? Abstinence works, sure, but it's all dependent on both parties respecting that boundary. Sometimes, they willingly don't (and naturally, with rape, someone has crossed that line). Birth control also works, but it's not 100%. And it's not always a lack of education that makes it fail. Efficacy is lessened when mixed with certain medicines (not always warned about on labels or by doctors). Or if you don't take it at the right time, that can lessen the efficacy. In theory, Carol Ann could have taken all the precautions, and she still might have ended up pregnant.

If you want to fault her for not doing that, then fine. But "mistakes" happened, and she ended up pregnant. There's no need to belabor that point. It's what she did after finding out that she was pregnant that matters. She could have had an abortion, absolutely. She could have raised the child on her own. Or she could, perhaps most responsibly, placed the child up for adoption so that the baby would be raised in love and in a safe environment.

But she had already left home, was shacking up with a man she hardly new (before moving in with him) and was un-apologetically engaging in felonious activities just to pay the rent and pay for her cigarettes.

Ah, yes, then we should definitely fault Carol for placing the little girl up for adoption. In a better world, Carol Ann would have realized that the things she was doing weren't great. She would have shaped up and gotten her life together, raised her daughter on her own, and never met Lindsey Buckingham -- thus sparing us her book. There are women who do get their lives together, and that's admirable. But Carol didn't and so, adoption was the best option. Sometimes responsibility is about knowing when you cannot do something (hence, I will never perform brain surgery). Sometimes, being responsible is knowing that you're in over your head and asking for help.

Again, it's no wonder Stevie did not treat her like a "sister of the moon." Stevie had nothing to fear from this woman as she, like so many of her kind, blame everyone but themselves for what happens to them.

And yet, isn't that one of the main criticisms people make about Stevie? How many people on this board have said that Stevie doesn't really take responsibility for her drug addictions? I make that point, not because I agree with that criticism, but because no one in this band is perfect. As fans, we are able to write off some of their character flaws because we love their music and the people they've become.

And I'm not surprised Carol Ann has written the book with a "woe is me" take on it. The majority of things we've heard about Carol Ann previously has been... well, negative, lol. After everything that's been said about her, of course, she'd want to say how innocent she was and such.

Besides -- the main draw of an autobiography/insider's tale is seeing his/her account of events and how he/she sees him/herself. Even in her "lies," we're learning a lot about who Carol Ann is and how she sees herself. The same can be said for Mick Fleetwood's book, as well as any interview Lindsey, Stevie, John, and Christine have ever given. Fleetwood Mac's dynamics are complicated, to say the least. And I think, because of drugs and/or every psychological coping mechanism known to man, we'll never know exactly what happened at any given moment within the band.

Stevie didn't give up her unwanted babies up for adoption she just had abortions instead

My thoughts exactly.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by carol7lynn

I stand by what I said. The woman has no morals. Excuses are meant to justify the unjustifiable. If you can't support a kid you shouldn't have them and there is no excuse for "accidental" pregnancies. I never wanted children and so I never got pregnant. Abstinence does work, and so does birth control. But you have to take responsibility for your body and educate yourself on how to effectively use it; especially if you can not afford to have a child.

Back in the 1970s, when I was in college, I didn't rely on the doctor at Planned Parenthood to educate me on how to avoid pregnancies, I went to the library and did my research. I wanted to have fun, travel, finish college and start a career so I "controlled" myself. And, I continued that practice all during my reproductive years as a married career woman and avoided accidents that way. Preventive medicine is always "less costly" than curative.

Responsible people know that, they alone, are accountable for their actions/behavior. That is what growing up is all about. If CA had been a minor at the time, I could have understood, her giving the child up for adoption so that she could finish school and establish herself in a legitimate career. But she had already left home, was shacking up with a man she hardly new (before moving in with him) and was un-apologetically engaging in felonious activities just to pay the rent and pay for her cigarettes.

Women like her make me ashamed of my own gender. Again, it's no wonder Stevie did not treat her like a "sister of the moon." Stevie had nothing to fear from this woman as she, like so many of her kind, blame everyone but themselves for what happens to them. She got what she asked for-kicked to the curb. The Stones wrote a song about her type in the 1960s which I find personifies CA to a T:

i dont know what to say to this except that i just threw up in my mouth a little after reading it...

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by danax6

Is that honestly what you expected from this book?

well, that quote should be indicative of how much credibility we should give to carolc's opinion.

[carrie721]

questions for carol7lynn:

unplanned pregnancies do happen - what world are you living in? rape happens, condoms break, the pill is not 100% effective. yes, abstinence works - are you suggesting that CAH should never have had sex? or that you never have? what would you have prefered CAH do once she realized she was pregnant? as others have pointed out, we do not know that CAH did not take every precaution necessary to avoid pregnancy. her options were to ...

1) have an abortion
2) completely rearrange her life, future plans, etc for a child she wasn't expecting
3) refuse to rearrange her life and raise her child in an unhealthy environment
4) give her child up for adoption to a family that desperately wants a child and who has jumped through hoops to get one.

hmmmm ...

[Tango]

Originally Posted by carol7lynn

I stand by what I said. The woman has no morals.

CarolC

I'm trying hard to follow what you are saying. It almost seems like an ad hominem argument- that nothing this woman has to say is reliable because she gave her baby up for adoption? Maybe I am totally reading you wrong. Women's right to choose? Women like her make you ashamed? her type? She didn't get kicked to the curb. She walked away. It took a while, and it took some promptings from a physician who urged her to break the cycle of violence she was living in, who said to her:

"I want to tell you something and I hope that you'll hear my words and think long and hard about it. And what I want to say is this: I see a lot of women come in here with injuries done to them by their husbands or boyfriends and they always go back to their men. And then I've seen a few of the same women come in again- and it's too late for me to help them. They leave here in a body bag. It's not going to stop, Miss Harris. It's going to get worse. I know that you think you love him and that you can stop it, but I honestly doubt if you can. This is very serious, and you need to protect yourself. You need to leave him. Just think about it, OK?"
Storms: My Life With Lindsey Buckingham and Fleetwood Mac (by Carol Ann Harris, page 355.)

Whether you like it or not, it's her right to speak about it, and her story to tell. Christine witnessed it. The young woman was seen in the hospital with marks around her neck, injuries to her scalp. One could imply Stevie tried to talk to her about it. Mick wrote about it. To attack her for seeing to the safe raising of her baby is wrong. This woman revealed a lot of ugliness that most women hide forever, as they are ashamed and think they did wrong and deserved it. I think this book really shows how much Carol Ann Harris has grown, whether I like it or not.


I guess we don't believe
That things could go that far
We all believe in people...
That we think believe in God
Somewhere in the night...
Someone feels the pain
The ones who walk away
Try to love again...
~Stevie Nicks

She walked away. Good for her! And Lindsey got help. He also changed! They BOTH changed! Yes, this book dredges up some ugliness. It provides insights that we never knew before. And it's unsettling. It's chilling. But I do believe her.

[danax6]

Originally Posted by carrie721

well, that quote should be indicative of how much credibility we should give to carolc's opinion.

I cannot believe we're actually debating this. It doesn't have anything to do with Stevie, Fleetwood Mac or any of that. Judging her based on that incident and comparing it to how she conducted herself later on is just wrong.

There is no excuse for accidental pregnancies? Gimme a break.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by danax6

I cannot believe we're actually debating this. It doesn't have anything to do with Stevie, Fleetwood Mac or any of that. Judging her based on that incident and comparing it to how she conducted herself later on is just wrong.

There is no excuse for accidental pregnancies? Gimme a break.

no, you're right, it's ridiculous. what's even more utterly ridiculous is carol's suggestion that because CAH put her child up for adoption, she is completely amoral and therefore not entitled to tell her story. i must echo sharon: why the hell did you buy this book? i just can't believe how ridiculous you sound.

[WelshWitchPMD]

Originally Posted by danax6

Oh, and since somebody brought up the Sara/Beverlee conversations, let's not forget how they talked about Stevie's jealous streak when they brought up that apparantly Lindsey and Beverlee hooked up at some point also.

Does anyone have these to post or PM to me? I'd love to hear them.

[sasja]

Originally Posted by carol7lynn

I stand by what I said. The woman has no morals. Excuses are meant to justify the unjustifiable. If you can't support a kid you shouldn't have them and there is no excuse for "accidental" pregnancies. I never wanted children and so I never got pregnant. Abstinence does work, and so does birth control. But you have to take responsibility for your body and educate yourself on how to effectively use it; especially if you can not afford to have a child.

Back in the 1970s, when I was in college, I didn't rely on the doctor at Planned Parenthood to educate me on how to avoid pregnancies, I went to the library and did my research. I wanted to have fun, travel, finish college and start a career so I "controlled" myself. And, I continued that practice all during my reproductive years as a married career woman and avoided accidents that way. Preventive medicine is always "less costly" than curative.

Responsible people know that, they alone, are accountable for their actions/behavior. That is what growing up is all about. If CA had been a minor at the time, I could have understood, her giving the child up for adoption so that she could finish school and establish herself in a legitimate career. But she had already left home, was shacking up with a man she hardly new (before moving in with him) and was un-apologetically engaging in felonious activities just to pay the rent and pay for her cigarettes.

Women like her make me ashamed of my own gender. Again, it's no wonder Stevie did not treat her like a "sister of the moon." Stevie had nothing to fear from this woman as she, like so many of her kind, blame everyone but themselves for what happens to them. She got what she asked for-kicked to the curb. The Stones wrote a song about her type in the 1960s which I find personifies CA to a T:

OUT OF TIME
(Jagger/Richards)

You don't know what's going on
You've been away for far too long
You can't come back and think you are still mine
You're out of touch, my baby
My poor discarded baby
I said, baby, baby, baby, you're out of time

Well, baby, baby, baby, you're out of time
I said, baby, baby, baby, you're out of time
You are all left out
Out of there without a doubt
'Cause baby, baby, baby, you're out of time

You thought you were a clever girl
Giving up your social whirl
But you can't come back and be the first in line, oh no
You're obsolete my baby
My poor old-fashioned baby
I said baby, baby, baby you're out of time


CarolC

Oh wow. Brrr!! I just have to say you sound like someone I'd not enjoy so much around me. Or around my children for that matter.
I was looking for the word to describe how you come across to me in that post, and I will just give you the whole slew of them as they all fit: unsympathetic, unkind, icy, stony, callous, and uncaring. And on top of it, convinced of your own moral superiority.

I hope your Career Life is giving you great satisfaction as I have a hard time imagining your personal life does.

Sasja (Career woman, with friends, a husband, a sex-life AND children by choice)