Just Skimmed Through STORMS

[Lindsfan]

Originally Posted by elle

i think if even a small part of abuse allegations is true, the woman had every right in the world to write a book and air that out, as a therapy.

there may be tons of inaccuracies and the book may be horribly written (and the woman may be far from the sharpest knife in a drawer), but that doesn't justify all the hate i'm reading in this thread.
just my 0.02.

Well said. Thank you. It's truly amazing to me that all that some people take away after reading this book, is that Stevie was slighted.

Originally Posted by Wynne

OH MY GOD there is footage of Lindsey making out with this woman Carol? EWwww, sorry I just can't imagine it. This woman has zero personality. I guess I am judging her because when you're young and have a wonderful romantic image in your head about two people, it's hard to see them with another person. Even more hard when the person is boring, no self esteem and was clearly just a groupie girlfriend that Lindsey used as a Mommy figure. The song Go Insane, when he says "She's a lot like you" is he comparing her to Stevie?

Yeah, people can be unrealistic like that when they're very young. I'm probably a lot older than you, because it doesn't disgust me to see a guy kiss his girlfrined

Also, I'm curious as to how you know that Carol has no personality? How much time have you spent with her?

Originally Posted by Deeshere

As to Carol's memory, I believe Carol really did love Lindsey (not sure if Lindsey truly loved Carol, but I think he tried to) and wanted to believe he no longer cared or loved Stevie, but I did read that when Carol was doing press for the book she admitted that she knew Lindsey still loved Stevie no matter how crazy Stevie made him and that she knew Lindsey in fact loved Stevie the entire time she was with him. However, Carol failed to mention this fact in her book.

I agree. I think Carol and Lindsey both loved each other. As Michele stated, they were together for seven years. Carol's love for Lindsey came through very clearly in the book. I don't get why people think that Lindsey can't love Carol and still have "a thing" for Stevie. People do it all the time. It's possible to feel love for two people at once, and it's certainly possible to be in love with Carol, and still have strong feelings for Stevie. Those feelings don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by Deeshere

I did not see her book as bashing Stevie, like some fans say she did.

I don't either. The book is about her life with Lindsey, and about her life with FM - including Stevie. Some good...some bad.

Originally Posted by Deeshere

As to Carol recording conversations, to me that speaks VOLUMES. If you plan on spending the rest of your life with this man then why record thoughts, stories and conversations for later, UNLESS you think it may not last and that you might possibly write a book about your experiences later on. Carol would have known how private Lindsey is and that he would NEVER have approved her writing a story about him and the band if they stayed together.

That's a really good point. It's a weird thing to do, and Lindsey being upset about it isn't at all surprising.

Originally Posted by Deeshere

As for Carol's claims that Lindsey violent attacked her for no reason, I am not sure what to think about that. I think some of it must have been true, because Stevie has admitted Lindsey choked her during a fight and Ken Calliat claims Lindsey choked him for erasing some guitar tracks.

Not to pick on you, because, I actually hear that a lot, that Stevie said Lindsey choked her. I don't follow Stevie, obviously, but I don't recall ever hearing her say that. I recall her saying when Lindsey said he was quitting the band, that she became angry, and that she could be scary, herself (or something to that effect), and that she lunged at Lindsey, which made him mad, and he went after her, chasing her through Chris's house, and throwing her on the car hood. I also recall John saying there was a big fight or argument, and making a choking motion with his hands. He didn't say who was choking whom. A lot of people assume it was Lindsey choking Stevie, but do we know that for a fact? If she really said that, could someone please share the source. It's also worth noting that John was (reportedly) violent and scary when he drank, as well. Didn't Chris say she and Stevie hid in closets or something when the guys were roaming around , yelling for them? Yet Lindsey is the only one who gets the bad reputation, making it a lot easier for Ken Cailliat to write about him in his book, and have people believe him. It may very well be true, but I don't take it as gospel just because Ken said it. Personally, I believe (though I don't actually know) that Lindsey was violent back then. I also think they were all screwed up and the that drugs and alcohol played a big part in it. Carol is the only one of Lindsey's girlfriends to claim Lindsey was violent. Anne Heche, Cheri Caspari, Kristen...nobody else had anything but good things to say about him, so I tend to think that it was only in those earlier years, from Rumours and Tusk era. Again, correct me, if I missed something that Stevie said. I know she said she couldn't handle the darkness or something, but that could have been depression, it could have been his anger or scariness, but not necessarily a specific act of abuse. Again, they were all a bit out of control at that time. So many times, the topic, no matter how benign, on here,seems to comes back to Lindsey hit Stevie, or Lindsey was abusive with Stevie, and yet we don't actually know that, right?

[Iktomi]

I try not to get too interested into the lives of Fleetwood Mac members, but I did receive this book as a gift and gave it a read. I'm a fan of Lindsey Buckingham the musician. And I think the man himself is personally interesting, as far as I find any other genius musician goes. So let me just put that out there first. Yet as someone with various experiences and knowledge on domestic violence, this book was of more interest to me in that regards, especially considering Harris' mindset when she wrote it.

Autobiographies deal mostly with perspectives (in other words, every autobiography is going to have inaccuracies and subjective accounts). While I felt that the author exaggerated in areas for effect and was likely inaccurate in her details, I personally didn't feel that she was lying about Lindsey being an abusive man during this time period. Not only by what she says explicitly, but rather implicitly as well. His characteristics and behaviors, without her even meaning to at times, really do describe the behaviors associated with men who are abusive. He had control and anger issues, and those issues have been documented/corroborated by others as well. Some of his lyrics also seem to reflect this mindset, and while not something you should rely on exclusively, the way he held her (the stern hugs (holds rather) around her neck) and his sometimes aggressive nature in bed seem to be consistent with the body language of abusive men. So much of what I read from Harris herself, her behaviors and mindset, are similar to that of victimized women as well. She blamed herself a lot, and forgave him way too easily; and even when the book was written, had a habit of apologizing for him (which shocked me, honestly). She never really took him to task for his abusive behavior or provided any sort of reflection on being a victim of abuse.

If you want to focus on proof, she did provide outside witnesses that could have easily discounted her allegations. Two of the moments that stick out to me were moments where the band members saw Lindsey abusing Carol. I don't remember either of them clearly (so I could be off), but in one scene, Carol describes Lindsey angrily threatening and pulling her towards their vehicle. Carol goes on to describe that as Lindsey was pulling her, she saw Stevie's concerned reaction (this actually touched me as I also read it as "knowing" reaction on Stevie's part, who I think from experience knew what Carol was going through.) If I remember correctly though, Carol expressed how it looked as if Stevie was going to possibly intervene but her friends seemed to have pulled her away. And everyone else just basically looked the other way.

The other moment I remember was when she described how Lindsey was dragging her by the hair in the car right in front of Christine, and when Lindsey let go and left, Christine, clearly shakened, helped her up afterwards. I don't remember what really happened after that, but I'm pretty sure Lindsey probably apologized and Carol accepted it, but nobody held Lindsey accountable for that (which is a totally different discussion). But what struck me with that scene was how after he first hit her, Carol ran after him basically trying to explain and justify herself (again, typical behavior patterns within abusive relationships)

Not only does she show that there were witnesses to this violence, but it really demonstrates their mindsets. Most woman, if slapped or hit, aren't going to run to the man who hit him and trying to explain or justify themselves, begging for him to listen. She constantly excuses him, and rarely demonizes him for his actions.

I'm not trying to start any sort of argument about Lindsey Buckingham (personally, I believe abusive men can be rehabilitated), but I think people should be a little more aware of the realities of domestic violence, and the mindsets involved and should not be so quick to dismiss her story on those accounts. We're all fans of FM and should be aware of the biases we have going into reading this. Sociologically, her description of the pattern of reactions and behaviors seems pretty consistent throughout. And not to criticize Harris, but she doesn't seem creative enough to be able to make all of this up, especially considering how much she reveals without even meaning to.

Anyway, my two cents.

Also, thought I'd throw this in here considering the topic:

http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/warning_signs.html

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/dome...es_effects.htm

[Lindsfan]

Originally Posted by Iktomi

I try not to get too interested into the lives of Fleetwood Mac members, but I did receive this book as a gift and gave it a read. I'm a fan of Lindsey Buckingham the musician. And I think the man himself is personally interesting, as far as I find any other genius musician goes. So let me just put that out there first. Yet as someone with various experiences and knowledge on domestic violence, this book was of more interest to me in that regards, especially considering Harris' mindset when she wrote it.

Autobiographies deal mostly with perspectives (in other words, every autobiography is going to have inaccuracies and subjective accounts). While I felt that the author exaggerated in areas for effect and was likely inaccurate in her details, I personally didn't feel that she was lying about Lindsey being an abusive man during this time period. Not only by what she says explicitly, but rather implicitly as well. His characteristics and behaviors, without her even meaning to at times, really do describe the behaviors associated with men who are abusive. He had control and anger issues, and those issues have been documented/corroborated by others as well. Some of his lyrics also seem to reflect this mindset, and while not something you should rely on exclusively, the way he held her (the stern hugs (holds rather) around her neck) and his sometimes aggressive nature in bed seem to be consistent with the body language of abusive men. So much of what I read from Harris herself, her behaviors and mindset, are similar to that of victimized women as well. She blamed herself a lot, and forgave him way too easily; and even when the book was written, had a habit of apologizing for him (which shocked me, honestly). She never really took him to task for his abusive behavior or provided any sort of reflection on being a victim of abuse.

If you want to focus on proof, she did provide outside witnesses that could have easily discounted her allegations. Two of the moments that stick out to me were moments where the band members saw Lindsey abusing Carol. I don't remember either of them clearly (so I could be off), but in one scene, Carol describes Lindsey angrily threatening and pulling her towards their vehicle. Carol goes on to describe that as Lindsey was pulling her, she saw Stevie's concerned reaction (this actually touched me as I also read it as "knowing" reaction on Stevie's part, who I think from experience knew what Carol was going through.) If I remember correctly though, Carol expressed how it looked as if Stevie was going to possibly intervene but her friends seemed to have pulled her away. And everyone else just basically looked the other way.

The other moment I remember was when she described how Lindsey was dragging her by the hair in the car right in front of Christine, and when Lindsey let go and left, Christine, clearly shakened, helped her up afterwards. I don't remember what really happened after that, but I'm pretty sure Lindsey probably apologized and Carol accepted it, but nobody held Lindsey accountable for that (which is a totally different discussion). But what struck me with that scene was how after he first hit her, Carol ran after him basically trying to explain and justify herself (again, typical behavior patterns within abusive relationships)

Not only does she show that there were witnesses to this violence, but it really demonstrates their mindsets. Most woman, if slapped or hit, aren't going to run to the man who hit him and trying to explain or justify themselves, begging for him to listen. She constantly excuses him, and rarely demonizes him for his actions.

I'm not trying to start any sort of argument about Lindsey Buckingham (personally, I believe abusive men can be rehabilitated), but I think people should be a little more aware of the realities of domestic violence, and the mindsets involved and should not be so quick to dismiss her story on those accounts. We're all fans of FM and should be aware of the biases we have going into reading this. Sociologically, her description of the pattern of reactions and behaviors seems pretty consistent throughout. And not to criticize Harris, but she doesn't seem creative enough to be able to make all of this up, especially considering how much she reveals without even meaning to.

Anyway, my two cents.

Also, thought I'd throw this in here considering the topic:

http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/warning_signs.html

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/dome...es_effects.htm

That's a great post. We've discussed this book, and his abusive actions on here, quite a lot. Again, I don't for a minute, think she's making that part up. I do think that he's changed - and has been a changed man - for several decades now. I'm more bothered by the fact that this topic was brought up, yet again, because someone was bothered at how Stevie was portrayed in this book, thereby seemingly missing the whole point! To read Carol's words, and feel no sympathy for her, but only disgust, or hatred, is mind-boggling to me.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Lindsfan

Not to pick on you, because, I actually hear that a lot, that Stevie said Lindsey choked her. I don't follow Stevie, obviously, but I don't recall ever hearing her say that. I recall her saying when Lindsey said he was quitting the band, that she became angry, and that she could be scary, herself (or something to that effect), and that she lunged at Lindsey, which made him mad, and he went after her, chasing her through Chris's house, and throwing her on the car hood. I also recall John saying there was a big fight or argument, and making a choking motion with his hands. He didn't say who was choking whom.

That's true and if we look at the Rock Family Tree interview, John made the choking gesture in sequence with Stevie's comment about attacking Lindsey, not about Lindsey then chasing Stevie down the block and throwing her onto the car.

What Stevie and Mick said was that Lindsey threw Stevie onto the hood of the car, not that he choked her. Stevie did say that Lindsey was going to kill her and she thought he was going to kill her and she told him her father and brother would have their revenge on him if he did kill her, if Fleetwood Mac didn't avenge her first.

So maybe people assume that the only way he could have been about to kill her is if he choked. But he could have just as easily been looking for a rock from the driveway to smash into her head -- if he was trying to kill her, which he probably wasn't exactly.

Mick for his part didn't seem to think Stevie was near death, but he did helpfully wonder if Lindsey was going to slap her.

Michele

[michelej1]

With the incident at Christine's house, Carol does not say that Lindsey dragged her by the hair. She says her hair got caught in the window of his car as he was driving away. Christine told him to stop driving. It's not clear that Lindsey knew that her hair was in the car, she had been chasing him as he was leaving.

I've had that happen to me with the belt from my coat getting trapped in the door as someone was driving off. Neither of us knew that the belt was in the coat until the car started to move and I started to be dragged, but luckily the belt got pulled away from my coat and I wasn't caught behind the moving car.

As for witnesses to her story, generally, when you are writing a book you actually have comments from the witnesses to verify your story -- at least two if preferable. I mean you don't have to do that for an autobiography, but when people write biographies they have two verifying sources to be considered credible. You can say anyone saw things and that doesn't put the onus on them to come forward and say they didn't see it.

If things happened the way Carol said they did, it's criminal behavior which would not only have warranted censure, but jail time. But I find her an unreliable narrator and I think there's some truth to her story, but I don't know how much. To me, you really have to seem believable on the small things to be credible on the big ones. I know the reverse logic goes, she might lie about little things, but she wouldn't lie about something major, but I look at it the other way around. I need to trust the small steps, before I make the big leaps.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by elle

so i don''t see "he had to have a gf so that he's not alone" argument being very valid.

And of course, having friends does not make up for the lack of a special someone in your life. So, in addition to Richard, definitely he would want a mate, but I don't think you would keep the same mate for 7 years just to have company, when you could easily have moved on to another partner. In a situation where there is no deep affection, I think you get bored and want to move on, especially if you're a rock star and have candidates throwing themselves at you regularly. I think he must have been with Carol so long because he loved her, not because he just didn't want to be alone.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Lindsfan

To read Carol's words, and feel no sympathy for her, but only disgust, or hatred, is mind-boggling to me.

If you don't believe her, I think it's hard to feel sympathy. If you do believe her that's a different story.

I would say if you believe what she says and still feel disgust or hatred, then that's a problem with our "blame the victim" society.

Michele

[elle]

Originally Posted by michelej1

If you don't believe her, I think it's hard to feel sympathy. If you do believe her that's a different story.

I would say if you believe what she says and still feel disgust or hatred, then that's a problem with our "blame the victim" society.

Michele

yes, i think that's what one has to be very careful about, when talking about this book. many arguments i read on here were along the lines "she must have not been blameless" if it happened. blameless or not, it does not justify the abuse, period.

[elle]

Originally Posted by Lindsfan

It was a pig/hog bucking like a horse - a Bucking ham...

thank you thank you thank you!

and, you said that was on the fruit box?

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by elle

yes, i think that's what one has to be very careful about, when talking about this book. many arguments i read on here were along the lines "she must have not been blameless" if it happened. blameless or not, it does not justify the abuse, period.

I agree with you, with one proviso. Just because someone is stronger than you, you can't use physical force against them either. Women should not be hit or pulled or pushed or yanked by the arm or held or restrained or intimidated with one of those, "you better do it or else," scowls. No one should. But they can't do that either.

I have encountered people with the mentality that they can engage in a violent act, but because there's little chance they can actually hurt the person, it's no big deal. Like, I'm so angry I'll just slap my boyfriend in exasperation, but he shouldn't hit me back because he could actually hurt ME, but I can't hurt him. So, I'll just smack him in a fit of pique.

That can't be done. You should not be the victim of physical aggression and you can't engage in it either, even if (practically speaking) coming from you, it's relatively harmless.

I mean, it's the same thing you tell a child, "I don't hit you and I don't expect you to hit me," even if they're still a toddler and their swats don't hurt.

Michele

[elle]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I agree with you, with one proviso. Just because someone is stronger than you, you can't use physical force against them either. Women should not be hit or pulled or pushed or yanked by the arm or held or restrained or intimidated with one of those, "you better do it or else," scowls. No one should. But they can't do that either.

I have encountered people with the mentality that they can engage in a violent act, but because there's little chance they can actually hurt the person, it's no big deal. Like, I'm so angry I'll just slap my boyfriend in exasperation, but he shouldn't hit me back because he could actually hurt ME, but I can't hurt him. So, I'll just smack him in a fit of pique.

That can't be done. You should not be the victim of physical aggression and you can't engage in it either, even if (practically speaking) coming from you, it's relatively harmless.

I mean, it's the same thing you tell a child, "I don't hit you and I don't expect you to hit me," even if they're still a toddler and their swats don't hurt.

Michele

agreed.

[elle]

Originally Posted by Lindsfan

It was a pig/hog bucking like a horse - a Bucking ham...

Originally Posted by elle

and, you said that was on the fruit box?

ok i re-listened, he says they were growing pears and apricots.

too funny with the bucking pig/ham on the box of bartlett pears.

[Lindsfan]

Originally Posted by michelej1

If you don't believe her, I think it's hard to feel sympathy. If you do believe her that's a different story.

I would say if you believe what she says and still feel disgust or hatred, then that's a problem with our "blame the victim" society.

Michele

Good point. For me, I don't think she pulled all of that out of thin air, though I do think she lacks credibility, and so I take it all with a grain of salt.

I also want to add that if he was as abusive as she says, and Mick, John, Ken, et. al., looked the other way, it doesn't say much for them either. Also, I don't think this kind of stuff was unique to LB or FM. My guess is it was not that unusual in the world of R&R, and so looking the other way, was part of the boys club mentality.

Originally Posted by michelej1

That can't be done. You should not be the victim of physical aggression and you can't engage in it either, even if (practically speaking) coming from you, it's relatively harmless.

I mean, it's the same thing you tell a child, "I don't hit you and I don't expect you to hit me," even if they're still a toddler and their swats don't hurt.

Michele

And that's kind of the feeling I get with Stevie and Lindsey, that they both pushed each other's buttons and there was a lot of emotional abuse going both ways. Obviously, men will usually be able to do a lot more physical damage, but it doesn't excuse a woman from acting the same way.

[Lindsfan]

Originally Posted by elle

ok i re-listened, he says they were growing pears and apricots.

too funny with the bucking pig/ham on the box of bartlett pears.

Well, it certainly makes their brand memorable to have "meat" as their "produce" mascot

[brickney723]

If things happened the way Carol said they did, it's criminal behavior which would not only have warranted censure, but jail time. But I find her an unreliable narrator and I think there's some truth to her story, but I don't know how much. To me, you really have to seem believable on the small things to be credible on the big ones. I know the reverse logic goes, she might lie about little things, but she wouldn't lie about something major, but I look at it the other way around. I need to trust the small steps, before I make the big leaps.

Michele[/QUOTE]

Agree.

I think he probably loved Carol (as in, he cared about Carol). I don't think he was ever in love with her. Many people are in years long relationships exactly like that- I actually think it's very common. If you are a person who needs to be with someone, it doesn't matter how many options you have: there may never be a reason to leave unless you can be with someone you are actually in love with. I think true love is a very rare thing, it just doesn't come along all that often.