The Infamous Bob Dylan Comment

[Phil]

I agree with everything sodascouts wrote - well said!

[JohnL]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

I obviously love them both but I thought Stevie's reaction came off as ridiculously over-the-top. What Lindsey was doing was giving constructive feedback. He was right in that her inconsistent use of pronouns was confusing, although he phrased it more gently than that.

Her reaction came across to me like this: "I can't handle even the slightest implication that what I've written isn't absolutely perfect in every way. Anyone who presumes to suggest such a thing will feel my fury!"

As someone who teaches creative writing, I can say that the refusal to listen to feedback is toxic. You don't have to change things if you don't want to, but you should at least be open to listening to other perspectives on your work.

YEARS later, when I was sitting at a premiere showing of In Your Dreams that I had flown to New York to see, I was cringing in my seat when I saw the way she was using that moment as an example of how terrible he was to work with, and the way she was contrasting it with how magnificent it was to work with Dave Stewart, who is shown constantly telling her how great she is. It was hard to watch, honestly, because I went to that movie hoping to see Stevie shine, and that segment made her look petty and childish.

What that movie and other interviews have told me is that Stevie has reached the point where Lindsey is not allowed to give her any kind of feedback (unless, of course, he is praising her)... and I don't think it's just Lindsey that receives this treatment.

I think she has this attitude towards just about everyone now, and I don't think it's a good thing. Even geniuses can benefit from feedback. Look at "Lady." Someone should have told her repeating the song's lyrics in their entirety twice with only one small musical change at the end was boring. She could have pushed herself to think of some new lyrics, and the song would have been better.

However, no one did so... because they knew Stevie didn't want to hear it. Suggestions were not wanted and would be ignored (she even bragged about ignoring feedback in some interviews). Now, she seems to want to be surrounded by sycophants and yes-people.

She was at her best when she had people challenging her, pushing her to go further, to go outside of her comfort zone - whether it was Lindsey, Tom Petty, Don Henley (in the case of "Leather and Lace"), or Jimmy Iovine. She doesn't realize that by shutting down any and all constructive criticism, she is actually hurting the quality of her work.

It's a shame.

You are saying this assuming that the entire situation during SYW was caught on film and put on the DVD that we got to see. I suspect that there was MUCH more that happened that what made it to the final DVD. What he was saying to her wasn't pushing her to perform or hit notes or challenging her to write better songs...it was trying to make her conform to his writing style and what HE wants. Typical control freak Lindsey.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

I obviously love them both but I thought Stevie's reaction came off as ridiculously over-the-top. What Lindsey was doing was giving constructive feedback. He was right in that her inconsistent use of pronouns was confusing, although he phrased it more gently than that.

Her reaction came across to me like this: "I can't handle even the slightest implication that what I've written isn't absolutely perfect in every way. Anyone who presumes to suggest such a thing will feel my fury!"

As someone who teaches creative writing, I can say that the refusal to listen to feedback is toxic. You don't have to change things if you don't want to, but you should at least be open to listening to other perspectives on your work.

YEARS later, when I was sitting at a premiere showing of In Your Dreams that I had flown to New York to see, I was cringing in my seat when I saw the way she was using that moment as an example of how terrible he was to work with, and the way she was contrasting it with how magnificent it was to work with Dave Stewart, who is shown constantly telling her how great she is. It was hard to watch, honestly, because I went to that movie hoping to see Stevie shine, and that segment made her look petty and childish.

What that movie and other interviews have told me is that Stevie has reached the point where Lindsey is not allowed to give her any kind of feedback (unless, of course, he is praising her)... and I don't think it's just Lindsey that receives this treatment.

I think she has this attitude towards just about everyone now, and I don't think it's a good thing. Even geniuses can benefit from feedback. Look at "Lady." Someone should have told her repeating the song's lyrics in their entirety twice with only one small musical change at the end was boring. She could have pushed herself to think of some new lyrics, and the song would have been better.

However, no one did so... because they knew Stevie didn't want to hear it. Suggestions were not wanted and would be ignored (she even bragged about ignoring feedback in some interviews). Now, she seems to want to be surrounded by sycophants and yes-people.

She was at her best when she had people challenging her, pushing her to go further, to go outside of her comfort zone - whether it was Lindsey, Tom Petty, Don Henley (in the case of "Leather and Lace"), or Jimmy Iovine. She doesn't realize that by shutting down any and all constructive criticism, she is actually hurting the quality of her work.

It's a shame.

Wow! get out of my head, and stop explaining things better than I! Really really well put. You will get some slack from the apologists, but that only means you did well and hit the right buttons.

[MoonSister75]

Originally Posted by JohnL

I suspect that there was MUCH more that happened that what made it to the final DVD.

​Exactly. No one here really knows what went on between them during the recording of that album. All we know is Stevie is adamant she won't do it again. We can all guess and debate about who's fault it is. But at the end of the day all that is clear is that they clash greatly, and is that really a good place to start recording a new album?

I just wish they could find a way around it so that maybe they didn't need to be in the studio together, or that time there was very limited, but that's probably not practical.

[singertobe]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

I obviously love them both but I thought Stevie's reaction came off as ridiculously over-the-top. What Lindsey was doing was giving constructive feedback. He was right in that her inconsistent use of pronouns was confusing, although he phrased it more gently than that.

Her reaction came across to me like this: "I can't handle even the slightest implication that what I've written isn't absolutely perfect in every way. Anyone who presumes to suggest such a thing will feel my fury!"

As someone who teaches creative writing, I can say that the refusal to listen to feedback is toxic. You don't have to change things if you don't want to, but you should at least be open to listening to other perspectives on your work.

YEARS later, when I was sitting at a premiere showing of In Your Dreams that I had flown to New York to see, I was cringing in my seat when I saw the way she was using that moment as an example of how terrible he was to work with, and the way she was contrasting it with how magnificent it was to work with Dave Stewart, who is shown constantly telling her how great she is. It was hard to watch, honestly, because I went to that movie hoping to see Stevie shine, and that segment made her look petty and childish.

What that movie and other interviews have told me is that Stevie has reached the point where Lindsey is not allowed to give her any kind of feedback (unless, of course, he is praising her)... and I don't think it's just Lindsey that receives this treatment.

I think she has this attitude towards just about everyone now, and I don't think it's a good thing. Even geniuses can benefit from feedback. Look at "Lady." Someone should have told her repeating the song's lyrics in their entirety twice with only one small musical change at the end was boring. She could have pushed herself to think of some new lyrics, and the song would have been better.

However, no one did so... because they knew Stevie didn't want to hear it. Suggestions were not wanted and would be ignored (she even bragged about ignoring feedback in some interviews). Now, she seems to want to be surrounded by sycophants and yes-people.

She was at her best when she had people challenging her, pushing her to go further, to go outside of her comfort zone - whether it was Lindsey, Tom Petty, Don Henley (in the case of "Leather and Lace"), or Jimmy Iovine. She doesn't realize that by shutting down any and all constructive criticism, she is actually hurting the quality of her work.

It's a shame.

Well to be fair, most artists would do the same

[MoonSister75]

Originally Posted by singertobe

Well to be fair, most artists would do the same

I know, it really was condescending off him, and such a put down. It's her poetry, and it's very precious to her. As someone else said on here, he should be concentrating on the music rather than changing the lyrics of the other artists songs. I wonder if he has suggested to Christine she needs to change any of her lyrics....

Good for Stevie for putting him in his place with the Bob Dylan quote

[HomerMcvie]

Good lort, as PRODUCER, it's his JOB to get the best performance out of every player, singer, lyricist, etc...

Stevie could murder babies, and you'd all still have her back!

[FuzzyPlum]

I think it's a prime example of how people need to tread on eggshells around Stevie. For most people it would just be a run of the mill conversation; somebody makes a suggestion about some of her lyrics (no big deal)- most people would consider it for a while and either say 'yeah, I see where you're coming from' or 'no, b*gger off, that's how I want them. Now lets get on with it'. She didn't need to labour the point. My god, I bet that recording studio is a much happier and chilled out place to be these days.
As somebody else said, she now just wants to surround herself with yes-men.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by JohnL

You are saying this assuming that the entire situation during SYW was caught on film and put on the DVD that we got to see. I suspect that there was MUCH more that happened that what made it to the final DVD. What he was saying to her wasn't pushing her to perform or hit notes or challenging her to write better songs...it was trying to make her conform to his writing style and what HE wants. Typical control freak Lindsey.

If there was something more incriminating that was left out of the SYW film, Stevie would have campaigned to keep it in or she would have divulged the fact that it was cult in her many interviews, since then. Moreover she would have mentioned it in her IYD film many years later when she was still complaining about the fact that Lindsey asked her about a pronoun. If she'd had anything else to complain about, she would have put it into IYD to strengthen her case (without Lindsey there to defend his position), especially since she had had a long time since the incident to think about it.

But no.... the only thing that raised her ire was that Thrown Down conversation and she's still patting herself on the back for the superb way she thinks she handled it.

Michele

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by michelej1

If there was something more incriminating that was left out of the SYW film, Stevie would have campaigned to keep it in or she would have divulged the fact that it was cult in her many interviews, since then. Moreover she would have mentioned it in her IYD film many years later when she was still complaining about the fact that Lindsey asked her about a pronoun. If she'd had anything else to complain about, she would have put it into IYD to strengthen her case (without Lindsey there to defend his position), especially since she had had a long time since the incident to think about it.

But no.... the only thing that raised her ire was that Thrown Down conversation and she's still patting herself on the back for the superb way she thinks she handled it.

Michele

Not only that, but I don't have to be there for the whole recording to understand what's going on. I've followed these people enough to fill in the blanks. She's not really good at hiding her pretension. I don't think she tries to do so.. and I'll give her that.

It's kind of like the burn bridges convo... You and I kept saying, "he misses her and that's why he's upset..." Then later find out that he was jumping in the limo asking Christine to stay.. and wanting her to record on the next album... and waiting for her to change her mind..

Reading between the lines is fun. errrrrrrrrrrrrr when you're good at it... lol

[dreamsunwind]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

Not only that, but I don't have to be there for the whole recording to understand what's going on. I've followed these people enough to fill in the blanks. She's not really good at hiding her pretension. I don't think she tries to do so.. and I'll give her that.

It's kind of like the burn bridges convo... You and I kept saying, "he misses her and that's why he's upset..." Then later find out that he was jumping in the limo asking Christine to stay.. and wanting her to record on the next album... and waiting for her to change her mind..

Reading between the lines is fun. errrrrrrrrrrrrr when you're good at it... lol

I agree with what you're saying but tbh I never thought Lindsey was saying Christine burned her bridges or whatever else he was saying because he was secretly hurt she left or anything, he's really forward moving in that way. I think he wanted her to stay obviously but I don't think he was bitter or anything so he was saying things. That's just kinda the way he talks sometimes, he ends up sounding sort of uptight.

[lbfan]

Originally Posted by dreamsunwind

I agree with what you're saying but tbh I never thought Lindsey was saying Christine burned her bridges or whatever else he was saying because he was secretly hurt she left or anything, he's really forward moving in that way. I think he wanted her to stay obviously but I don't think he was bitter or anything so he was saying things. That's just kinda the way he talks sometimes, he ends up sounding sort of uptight.

I thought I read that Christine not only sold all of her property/houses in America, but that she also sold the rights of her entire catalog of music. Obviously Lindsey loves metaphors (and to repeat them over and over) and he used the "burning of bridges" as the best way to describe her departure. I think he wanted her to stay, but saw the measures Christine was taking to separate herself from the insanity that can be Fleetwood Mac as so extreme, that he never thought she would return.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

It's kind of like the burn bridges convo... You and I kept saying, "he misses her and that's why he's upset..." Then later find out that he was jumping in the limo asking Christine to stay.. and wanting her to record on the next album... and waiting for her to change her mind..

We know sour grapes when we taste them.

Christine hadn't burned anything and, when asked to elaborate, he did give the spiel about her divorcing, selling her home, etc. But he is not a complete loon and knows the connotation of "burned her bridges" and he was being devilish to say that three million times, year after year and it was because he minded her having left and wished she hadn't.

As for the Bob Dylan conversation, when I saw In Your Dreams, I was like "Lindsey sure has fallen down on the job if he hasn't given her anything new to complain about in the last 10 years. From 2003-2013, that's the best insult from him she has to offer in this documentary of hers? Good heavens, man. You have lost your mettle."

Michele

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by michelej1

As for the Bob Dylan conversation, when I saw In Your Dreams, I was like "Lindsey sure has fallen down on the job if he hasn't given her anything new to complain about in the last 10 years. From 2003-2013, that's the best insult from him she has to offer in this documentary of hers? Good heavens, man. You have lost your mettle."

well, (sigh), that's the tricky thing about those co-dependent relationships.... once one party decides not to play anymore the other is lost and doesn't know how to move on...so they keep trying to stir up the old familiar drama to get that feeling back (RS cover story, comments in the press, etc etc)... You now get to resent the other person for NOT playing along with the old sh&t

[elle]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

well, (sigh), that's the tricky thing about those co-dependent relationships.... once one party decides not to play anymore the other is lost and doesn't know how to move on...so they keep trying to stir up the old familiar drama to get that feeling back (RS cover story, comments in the press, etc etc)... You now get to resent the other person for NOT playing along with the old sh&t

yes, and somebody here suggested that's exactly what's been happening the last few years: he's not taking the bait and is trying to give her whatever she wants to make it enjoyable for her to play in the sandbox with them. and she needs that old drama and resents this new peace-loving Lindsey.