The Gay Thread

[sorcerer999]

Originally Posted by becca

Does anyone remember a movie that featured a character obsessed with Cass Elliot music? It may have been Australian (or I've just gotten it mashed up with Muriel's Wedding). I've been racking my brain to come up with it's title to no avail!

Becca, it's called "Beautiful Thing". British teen angst film. Pretty good if I remember, but I haven't seen it in over a decade. Not sure how it holds up today.

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by becca

Does anyone remember a movie that featured a character obsessed with Cass Elliot music? It may have been Australian (or I've just gotten it mashed up with Muriel's Wedding). I've been racking my brain to come up with it's title to no avail!

Beautiful Thing! A classic. It's British. Based on a play by Jonathan Harvey who is wonderful. His best work is the book for the Pet Shop Boys musical Closer to Heaven, which I would make into a movie if I ran Hollywood. Too bad Spielberg pals it up with that fraud Tony Kushner (Angels in America).

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by Dex

The general consensus that western "mainstream" (inasmuch as gay films can be mainstream) films are basically cheap sleazy crap. If you're making a film and only expect to appeal to a gay audience, you're likely to try and appeal to that entire audience base. And I honestly think the only way people know how to do that is through sex-based content. We're divided on most other matters.

Fortunately the films I like are way way way beyond demographic pandering. They attempt the Griffithian dream of a Total Art for the Popular Audience, as explicated in my RIP piece on Patrice Chereau in my new book Watch the Throne.

[markolas]

I've become very interested in LGBT documentaries in the last couple of years. Have you guys seen these?

- Before Stonewall (1984): This is probably my favorite. It chronicles the gay liberation movement and gay culture prior to 1969.

- Word Is Out (1978): Fascinating. Interviews with everyday gay & lesbian folk conducted between 1972 and 1977.

- We Were Here (2011): Documentary about the beginning of the AIDS crisis in San Francisco. I avoided it for a long time, because I knew I'd cry, and I did.

- The Celluloid Closet (1995): This is what started me on this kick. It discusses homosexuality in American film. It's based on Vito Russo's 1981 book.

- Screaming Queens (2005): About the 1966 riot at Compton's Cafeteria in San Francisco by drag queens and transgender women.

- Paris Is Burning (1990): Classic doc about Harlem's "drag ball" scene in the 1980s. This is basically where RuPaul got the idea for "Drag Race."

- Stonewall Uprising (2010): Really moving documentary about the Stonewall Riots. They interviewed one of the cops who was involved in the raid; he was very old and obviously quite ill and was actually very remorseful.

- Gay Sex in the '70s (2005): About gay culture in NYC between Stonewall in 1969, and the appearance of AIDS in 1981.

- How to Survive a Plague (2012): Early years of AIDS and the efforts of ACT-UP (AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power) and TAG (Treatment Action Group).

I've seen others, but these are the absolute best.

[TrueFaith77]

The Celluloid Closet --both the book and the movie--is a menace. Totally perverts film history and gay aesthetics. I would recommend as one alternative the documentaries of Mark Rappaport (Rock Hudson's Home Movies, The Silver Screen: Color Me Lavender).

Probably the greatest gay documentary of all time is Of Time and the City by Terence Davies.

Others that spring to mind:

Terminal Bar <--My review in Serpents and Doves referenced below
Sex Positive <--An alternative history of the early gay movement's response to AIDS
Chris and Don: A Love Story <--Not only a revelatory portrait of a gay relationship, it features within it a nugget, a hint of the Secret History of Cinema that the insidious The Celluloid Closet keeps in the closet.

[becca]

Yes, Beautiful Thing! Thank you!

I picked up Terence Davies' Trilogy on BFI DVD when I bought Of Time And The City, it's sort of a more explicit and darkly humoured Catholic cousin of the Bill Douglas Trilogy I thought. I find having a Region 2 Pal player essential.

I've seen a bunch of Stonewall related docs thanks to the Seattle and Detroit PBS stations, but I paid to see the 2010 feature. I used to know an older person who had been around Manhattan (Christopher St.) back then and was fascinated to hear the stories first hand with such a great accent! I was in awe to have been in the presence of a survivor of the first order. To be honest some things were genuinely very scary sounding (as they still are in some places today); these people exhibited bravery in the U.S. above and beyond desperation... much like sister Rosa Parks or the segregated drug-store counter sitters.

[Dex]

Originally Posted by becca

Yes, Beautiful Thing! Thank you!

I picked up Terence Davies' Trilogy on BFI DVD when I bought Of Time And The City, it's sort of a more explicit and darkly humoured Catholic cousin of the Bill Douglas Trilogy I thought. I find having a Region 2 Pal player essential.

I've seen a bunch of Stonewall related docs thanks to the Seattle and Detroit PBS stations, but I paid to see the 2010 feature. I used to know an older person who had been around Manhattan (Christopher St.) back then and was fascinated to hear the stories first hand with such a great accent! I was in awe to have been in the presence of a survivor of the first order. To be honest some things were genuinely very scary sounding (as they still are in some places today); these people exhibited bravery in the U.S. above and beyond desperation... much like sister Rosa Parks or the segregated drug-store counter sitters.

Yes! It's fascinating to hear these stories. And I wish more emphasis was placed on respect for the struggles of previous generations in the GLBT community. North American gay guys my age have all heard of Rosa Parks, for example, but ask them about Stonewall and you'll often get a fairly blank stare. I'm guilty of this to an extent as well. It's just not something we talk about enough. But it's so amazing how much change has occurred in such a short time! My mother's lifetime highlights this, to think that when she was a child me having sex with my husband would've been a criminal offence, and now only a few decades later she's able to say quite openly that I have a husband with barely anyone raising an eyebrow. We have so much to be thankful for.

There was an out gay guy in my high school, who was a year below me, but we had brief conversations now and again, and his knowledge of GLBT history was so immense and I learned so much from him. It was jarring to find out, after graduating, that he was very much the exception.

[becca]

Dex, we've seen marches turn into parades, but there's also been a period of the word 'liberal' becoming a name-calling slur.

Mark Twain said something to the effect that history doesn't repeat but it usually rhymes. If you look into Berlin in the 1920s-30s during the Weimar republic things were very open and accepting but a lot of angry name-callers wanted to re-fight some old battles they'd lost yet again. There's even photos of the club called Eldorado with it's 'hier ist's richtig' slogan redone over as a nazi party office! Everyone who cares about freedom has to watch for actions more than words, but things always start with the words. My great uncle in Holland organized some labour stikes when people were being marched away and paid the ultimate price. It shows how things snowball when many people 'don't want to know'.

Cabaret should be classified as a gay film being based on Christopher Isherwood's I Am A Camera about his time in Berlin. Someone should package it with some good documentaries.

[Autumn Ocean]

What are everyone's thoughts on Brokeback Mountain?

[Dex]

Originally Posted by becca

Dex, we've seen marches turn into parades, but there's also been a period of the word 'liberal' becoming a name-calling slur.

Mark Twain said something to the effect that history doesn't repeat but it usually rhymes. If you look into Berlin in the 1920s-30s during the Weimar republic things were very open and accepting but a lot of angry name-callers wanted to re-fight some old battles they'd lost yet again. There's even photos of the club called Eldorado with it's 'hier ist's richtig' slogan redone over as a nazi party office! Everyone who cares about freedom has to watch for actions more than words, but things always start with the words. My great uncle in Holland organized some labour stikes when people were being marched away and paid the ultimate price. It shows how things snowball when many people 'don't want to know'.

Cabaret should be classified as a gay film being based on Christopher Isherwood's I Am A Camera about his time in Berlin. Someone should package it with some good documentaries.

You're right of course, Becca. But although in some circles "Liberal" is a dismissive/pejorative term, in Canada being accepting of same-sex relationships isn't considered "liberal" anymore, it's completely moderate/mainstream, and I think that's what's so powerful and amazing. And I'm from Alberta where the "ugh, liberals" mentality is probably higher than elsewhere in the country. Homophobia was a mainstream view here until well into the 90s, now it's completely on the fringe. At least until you get into Mormon country south of Calgary, but shhhh.

Originally Posted by Autumn Ocean

What are everyone's thoughts on Brokeback Mountain?

I saw Brokeback Mountain when I was too young/stupid to really appreciate a romantic drama like that. It's filmed around where I'm from, so it was a big deal when it was released, but unfortunately my initial reaction was "it's boring" and I haven't seen it since. I need to give it another try. I do think the symbolic significance of having a completely gay romance in the hollywood mainstream with the budget and star power that BM did was an enormous thing for us and I'll always appreciate it for that. But in terms of the film's actual content, unfortunately, I really don't know what I think of it. What do you, Autumn Ocean?

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by Autumn Ocean

What are everyone's thoughts on Brokeback Mountain?

It's atrocious. And worse hair and make up than a RuPaul Drag Race audition video.

Originally Posted by Dex

"it's boring" and I haven't seen it since. I need to give it another try. I do think the symbolic significance of having a completely gay romance in the hollywood mainstream with the budget and star power that BM did was an enormous thing for us and I'll always appreciate it for that. But in terms of the film's actual content, unfortunately, I really don't know what I think of it. What do you, Autumn Ocean?

Your first reaction was the correct one. It's boring. Ang Lee is a dull filmmaker. Also since Staircase was made in the late 60s, nobody can call Brokeback Mountain a breakthrough. Star power? Ledger and Gylennhal where in flop after flop prior to BM (what an appropriate acronym). Staircase starred Rex Harrison and Richard Burton at their peaks of star power. Their bravery--and ARTISTRY--will never be appreciated it seems. Besides, Oliver Stone's Alexander is far more daring as an attempt at a bisexual blockbuster (with two hot actors people cared about!!! Jordan Catalano!!!!)--and it came out one year before Brokeback Mountain. Don't believe the hype.

I cannot stress enough that some of the gigantic movie achievements of the last three decades have been gay films whose intention is to reach the universal audience. They failed to reach those audiences because they didn't have BM's hype machine--and also, to be frank, the media's homophobia which BM appeased. It's time to flush.

Also in American cinema, although Vito Russo--author of The Celluloid Closet--and his clique of sycophants successfully conspired against them: Robert Altman made (maybe) the greatest overtly gay American films of all time in the early 80s: Streamers and Come Back to the Five and Dime, Jimmy Dean Jimmy Dean. BM don't rate.

[becca]

I haven't seen that, but I did have a strange dream about two gay cowboys running from a bunch of straight cowboys when their pickup truck broke down and wondered what might have caused it.

[Autumn Ocean]

I loved Brokeback. I would say it is more a queer film than a gay film, since the characters don't articulate or openly embrace their sexuality.

In some ways, it is a cautionary tale about the consequences of denying who you are. It also touches on how the great American west didn't offer the same freedom to all.

The film is beautifully shot and acted.

Towards the end of the film, there is a scene where Ennis visits Jack's parents after his death and discovers a shirt of his inside one of Jack's. He takes the shirts, and in the final scene you see that he has reversed it, so that Jack's shirt is inside his. This just broke my heart. I remember sobbing in the cinema and trying to hide it.

I grew up in a farming and mining area and was "the only gay in the village". I didn't really have any reference points. I knew I liked guys but couldn't relate to the camp caricatures that were the only representations of men who liked men I could find.

I struggled with it for a long time and didn't come out until I was 29.

The film affected me deeply, at least in part, because I was living the same lie for years. Dion

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by Dex

And I'm from Alberta where the "ugh, liberals" mentality is probably higher than elsewhere in the country.

I just don't understand this, be it Canada or the United States.

Who wouldn't want to be a liberal? Who wouldn't want to be accepting, kind, generous, open minded and generally appreciative of diversity and cultural differences? Who wouldn't want a better, helpful and fulfilling, factually educated, cooperative society in favor of one living a myth, always at odds with itself or some segement thereof?

Ugh, conservatives.

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by Autumn Ocean

I loved Brokeback. I would say it is more a queer film than a gay film, since the characters don't articulate or openly embrace their sexuality.

In some ways, it is a cautionary tale about the consequences of denying who you are. It also touches on how the great American west didn't offer the same freedom to all.

The film is beautifully shot and acted.

Towards the end of the film, there is a scene where Ennis visits Jack's parents after his death and discovers a shirt of his inside one of Jack's. He takes the shirts, and in the final scene you see that he has reversed it, so that Jack's shirt is inside his. This just broke my heart. I remember sobbing in the cinema and trying to hide it.

I grew up in a farming and mining area and was "the only gay in the village". I didn't really have any reference points. I knew I liked guys but couldn't relate to the camp caricatures that were the only representations of men who liked men I could find.

I struggled with it for a long time and didn't come out until I was 29.

The film affected me deeply, at least in part, because I was living the same lie for years. Dion

Thanks for sharing.

I enjoyed Brokeback. It was well acted and beautifully shot, as you said. It also served a role in bringing an unconventional gay love story to mainstream American audiences in a way they'd never seen before, and it deserves recognition for that.