Danny Before and After Kiln House

[Hawkeye]

Is it just me or did Danny change his style ALOT after Peter Green left the band. His songs on Future Games are much more rockier and less bluesier (what words ) And i like his later stuff alot better. Every song from Bare Trees and Future Game she did was PERFECT. But i' don't even like Station Man, from his old stuff. Coming your way is good though.

[wetcamelfood]

Definitely.

I respect your opinion on not liking the earlier DK stuff much though I think that is something that is often overlooked about Danny is how he was able to change musical directions so much and in a relatively short time frame and (I think) successfully which is quite an achievement.

I'm not saying YOU'RE saying "(this)" (the opposite of what I'm about to say) but I just wanted to say, I don't think he was "lost musically" during that time or anything, I think that's all he was doing was just moving with the musical direction(s) that FM were taking during that time. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

John

[becca]

I like most of the blues material he did a lot, he was obviously bringing something original to it. When You Say from that time is not blues but is experimental and some have said they don't appreciate that song. I think he was very aware of what Clapton was going through at the same time, from Yardbirds to Bluesbreakers to Cream and into some uncharted explorations eventually into reggae and laid back funk-rock sensibilities, and his growing as a vocalist as well. So I think these changes were maybe more Kirwan led rather than FM-Christine led really. And who is to say Clapton wasn't following what Kirwan was up to and drawing some courage from that as well? I guess some people don't like artists who change a lot, like Joni Mitchell who was on American Masters last night, people want them to just do one kind of music, but Kirwan is more interesting and impressive for having evolved and taken chances in doing things that were not expected. He did feel too that the blues was essentially going to be a foreign form of expression for most white artists, but he did create a few great blues tunes of his own, and great playing is never a waste is it?

[BklynBlue]

Kirwan's contribution's to Fleetwood Mac has always been undervalued. He brought with him an eclecticism that allowed / encouraged Peter Green to push past the artifical boundaries of "the blues" to explore other musical ideas.

With the recording of "Mr. Wonderful", the band had found themselves in a cul-de-sac - Danny came on board and as Green himself has said, he "helped" him to finish "Albatross" - their breakout single.
The b-side, Danny's "Jigsaw Puzzle Blues" would not have sounded out of place on the Beatles' "White Album". It was as if he said to Green, 'We can just do whatever we want!'
Listen to Danny's "Like Crying" and you can hear the seeds of the instrumentation for "Man of the World".

It was Danny who balance the band's sound, he could do a blues like the Otis Rush styled "Something Inside of Me", or push and compliment Green on his longer improv explorations, but it was his feel for the more "mainstream" (no insult intended), songs he wrote, like "Although the Sun Is Shining" and "When You Say" making the transition to Bob Welch, and the blossoming of Christine Perfect, seem more natural.

Kirwan's catalog within FM and his solo work is certainly due for a reevaluation

[chiliD]

Basically what Danny added to the band was someone that Peter could play off of...and get ideas from and be challenged by. Jeremy Spencer just didn't fit that bill (or didn't WANT to fit that bill). Danny wasn't what I would call a prolific lyricist, but a consistently prolific writer, nonetheless. Outside of "When You Say", he really didn't write a real "stinker". He was able to "hide" alongside Peter (and Peter was, for a time, able to "just be a member of the band", rather than the main focal point of Fleetwood Mac...which he despised) After Peter left, Danny still managed to write really good songs, but I think the pressure of being co-LEADER of the band proved too much for him...I think had he still had someone to "hide behind" yet still be at the forefront, a lot of his "problems" wouldn't have surfaced so dramatically.

I don't think his "style" really changed that much after Peter left, "Woman Of A Thousand Years" isn't much of a stretch from "Although The Sun Is Shining"..."Child Of Mine" is a logical "next step" from "Coming Your Way", etc, etc. Where Danny's style changed most was after he was out of Fleetwood Mac altogether...where his songwriting seemed to be more suited for Wings or Badfinger than Fleetwood Mac.

[BklynBlue]

I think that the fact that Kirwan gave Green someone to "work off of" was vitally important to Green. Spencer chose not to collaborate (or so everything that I've read seems to indicate) and although they are a fine rhythm section, Messrs McVie & Fleetwood didn't seem to do a lot of the creative "heavy lifting".
The opportunity to "hide" can be extremely liberating -look at Mike Bloomfield's work with Al Kooper and Nick Gravenites and closer to Green, Eric Clapton - the leap from the Bluesbreakers to Cream is amazing - the studio recordings with Derek & the Dominos, when he had Duane Allman to play off of is one of his finest moments - Clapton's recordings from the seventies and eighties varied wildly depending on the band he was with and how hard the producer was willing to push him -
That's what was missing from the early FM - and to a certain extent it still haunts the Splinter Group - you rarely get the sense of the members coming together, working towards a common goal - you can hear it in later live shows with FM, but rarely in the studio -
Some of my favorite recordings of Green's are when he was playing sessions - with Bob Brunning, Otis Spann - there's a sense of joy and ease to his playing - he actually seems to be enjoying himself - you can hear it even now, when you listen to "Hot Foot Powder" -
It's just a shame that Green and Kirwan couldn't make a stronger connection - I think, together, they could have scaled even greater heights than those that they did

[chiliD]

Originally posted by BklynBlue
... and to a certain extent it still haunts the Splinter Group - you rarely get the sense of the members coming together, working towards a common goal...

I agree with you 100% in regards to Bloomfield & Clapton; but, don't share the same idea here in regards to the PGSG...I think they're TOTALLY a "5-headed unit", hitting on all cylinders. I don't recall hearing a tighter unit since the original lineup of the Allman Bros Band.

[BklynBlue]

First, please understand, I'm looking for insight here, not an arguement -
From the discs I'm most familiar with from PGSG, "Hot Foot Powder", "Destiny Road" & "Reaching for the Cold 100", on the last two, I find it's only on the "remakes" that I get that sense of joy - could be me overlaying my own feelings on the music - because I have to say, there are times when my enjoyment of the playing is dampened by the weakness of the song itself - example: "Burglar" , nice harp, weak song, "Turn Your Love Away", I really like the playing - I think the vocal is poor - on "RFTC100", one of my favorite tracks is "It Takes Time" (superior to the version he's recorded with the Brunning / Sunflower band) but I also feel it's Green's weakest vocal - and it's a shame -
maybe that's why the "HFP" collection works so well for me, I love the work of the guest artists and the material and production are much better suited to Green's voice - it's Watson who suffers by comparison on that disc, listen to "Milkcow's Calf Blues" -
If you could point in the direction of other tracks, on these discs or others, where you feel the playing really stands out, I'm interested in hearing them

[chiliD]

Oh, no argument, intended...sorry that you took my reply that way! I just seem to have a different view of the PGSG than you do...no biggie.


"It Takes Time" on Reaching The Cold 100?? A bonus track?

I have two other versions of that...one on the first PGSG album (the "blue album" ) and another on the Soho Sessions set. Being that they traditionally use that as their opening number, it kind of has that "warm-up" quality to it...a good shuffle to get the set started on an up-note, but not exactly top form out of the gate.

I really can't recommend more strongly the remainder of the PGSG catalogue. Time Traders is wonderful...I can't get away with only one listen of "Real World"; I have to hear it two or three times in a row before moving on to the other great tunes on the CD...Nigel's "Shadow On My Door" is really powerful (especially live!)..."Wild Dogs" is a masterpiece in two parts...the rockin' part one, the "Albatross-like" second part. Plus, the remake of "Underway" is a nice touch. The remake of "Uganda Woman" would make Paul Simon envious. Soho Session is a good live set...includes old FMac (and older) tunes "Rattlesnake Shake", "Green Manalishi", "Albatross", "The Supernatural", as well as some acoustic performances of Robert Johnson tunes. Of course, since you like Hot Foot Powder, the Robert Johnson Songbook album should tickle your fancy, as well...VERY strong performances throughout. Peter's performances of "Homework" & "The Stumble" from the first album are refreshing...maybe it hits me a bit differently, considering where Peter was at psychologically just a couple of years before the PGSG was formed...but, there's definitely a growth pattern when listening to the PGSG albums in chronological order. His playing on "Spiritual Thief", "Dangerous Man", "Cool Down", and especially his renewed use of wah-wah on "Must Be A Fool", I find inspiring.

On the Danny Kirwan note:

I have heard (I think it was Jet Celmins who mentioned it in his Q&A here on the Penguin) that he's back to playing again, but just for personal joy. It would be just wonderful if he could conquer his demons (or learn to co-exist with them) as it seems Peter has. Maybe since we've seen the fruits of Peter's hard work at "getting well", Danny might be right around the corner from a comeback, as well. As recently as 1995, we didn't think we'd ever see or hear Peter back making music again, and look how far he's come. If Danny's getting back into playing now, maybe in the next couple or three years we'll hear of a new Danny Kirwan album in the works! (We can always hope!)

[BklynBlue]

Clarification: My concern was that I was coming off as a jerk!
Thanks for the thoughtful reply - I'm always interested in what people "hear" when they listen to a given piece of music -
You seemed surprised about the reference of "It Takes Time" on RTC100 - it was listed as one of four bonus tracks along with "BMW", "GM" and "Albatross" -
If you haven't heard the version with the Brunning-Sunflower Band, you can find it on the "Jumping At Shadows" compilation - if you don't already have the Vaudeville Years discs, I highly recommend it - there are only a few Kirwan outtakes on it, but they are among the hightlights -
while the PGSG's playing is tighter than the Brunning-Sunflower and even Peter is sharper - he just seems more comfortable - it was recorded in '69 and again, with much of FM's studio recordings, they never seemed to be having that much fun -
I hope that what you read about Kirwan making music again is true, just for his own sake -
Who knows, Kirwan and Green might find a common bond in their shared experiences -
Anyway, his wishing him the best -
I'll check out Time Traders and let you know what I think -
Again, thanks

[chiliD]

Originally posted by BklynBlue
You seemed surprised about the reference of "It Takes Time" on RTC100 - it was listed as one of four bonus tracks along with "BMW", "GM" and "Albatross

Ahhh, yeah...I'd just forgot what the bonus tracks were besides "BMW".