Help identifying country of origin of bootleg

[BklynBlue]

Reaching out to Ledge members from the Scandinavian parts of our world – I’m hoping that someone might be able to identify the language being spoken at the end of a bootleg said to have been recorded in Helsinki in the spring of 1969 (this would make it April 3rd according to Christopher Hjort)
I have also seen this show dated as September 24th and simply 1970 (no specific date given)
As this set contains the only live performance of “Man of the World” that I am aware of, it is easy enough to identify.
Based on the set list (they perform Rattlesnake Shake with the “Madge” coda and “Oh Well”), April of 1969 seems way too early.
As most of the songs are kept fairly short, and they do not perform “Green Manalishi” it seems doubtful that it is from 1970 either.
Based on the playing, I have come to think it is most likely from their November 1969 Scandinavian tour, possibly even the “Cue Room" in Goteborg. Dawson has posted a show on the Wolfgang’s Vault site said to be that show, but most here agree that the show in question it is from a later date – could this be the actual show recorded on that date?
The comments I refer to come after their last encore, Little Richard’s “Keep-a-Knockin’”. It lasts about twenty seconds but between the poor recording and the fact that I would not be able to indentify Danish, from Swedish, from Finnish, I defer to others who may be more familiar with these languages.
Of course, knowing "where" it was recorded will still not tell us "when", but at least it would provide a “correct” point of departure.

I thank all who have too much time on their hands, the desire to help and the ability to do so, in advance for their time.

[Ms Moose]

I have a bootleg recording, supposedly from Helsinki 3rd of April 1970. Hjort notes that " The European tour grinds to a halt with this concert". They performed at a place called: Kultuuritaalo.

My version doesn't have "Man of the World" on it, but it has someone yapping away for about twenty seconds after "Keep-a Knocking", so it must be the one you are referring to. And it is in finnish as far as I can hear. It differs from the other scandinavian languages in that it is a slavic not than a nordic language, and has its own tone and rhytm.
To complicate matters, some finnish people close to the swedish border speak "finnish-swedish" (i.e. swedish with the finnish rhytm and tone :-)). So it could be a concert in Sweden with a finnish-swedish compere. But I don't think so.

Any finns aboard to disagree with me?

Ms Moose

P.S. "Rattlesnakeshake" was recorded for "Then Play On" in the spring of 1969, so it could be performed in 1969, couldn't it?

[BklynBlue]

Thank you – yes you are correct concerning when “Rattlesnake Shake” was recorded (April 15, 1969) so it is possible that this was one of the first times they had performed the number – they had performed a number of songs that would end up on “Then Play On” before recording them in the studio, such as “Before the Beginning” and “Coming Your Way” –
However, the earliest live performances available of “Coming Your Way” find the band taking the number at a break-neck pace – then, after the Royal Albert Hall performance, (April 22nd) it settles into something closer to the studio recording’s tempo
It is the inclusion of “Oh Well” that really throws me – it is a bit rougher than later versions, as if they have not quite locked down the riff, though they could be experimenting; “Homework”, which opens this show, is also quite different from their other performances of the song –
You mentioned that the recording that you have does not include “Man of the World” – is the one that you have nine tracks? Beginning with “If You Let Me Love You”?
The show with “Man of the World” runs to thirteen tracks and seems complete unto itself – the nine track disc was listed as the second disc to that show – but I am beginning to believe that the two were recorded at different times - so it does seem possible that the nine numbers were recorded in April of 1969...

[Ms Moose]

Hm-m. I must have the nine track recording then?

It goes like this:

1. If You let Me Love You
2. Something Inside of Me
3. Jigsaw Puzzle Blues
4. Stop messing Around
5. Before The Beginning
6. Rattlesnake Shake/Searching for Madge
7. Loving Kind
8. Great Balls of Fire
9. Keep A-Knocking

So you actually think this was recorded a year before - meaning april 1969 (not april 1970?) According to Hjort they rounded of their tour of the nordic countires with a concert in Finland on the 3rd of April 1969, so it is plausible. Also the music sounds more 69 than 70'es to me. The live recordings from the last three months of FM (as we know it ) were much more abandoned or wild (can you use that word for it?).

That 13 track recording of yours sounds very interesting! They did "Homework" a lot around 68/69 (I love that song), and a less polished version of "Oh Well" and the only live version of "Man of the World" - WOW!

Ms Moose

[Wouter Vuijk]

I downloaded this from Dime, 19 tracks (including the closing anouncements mentioned) with bonus 4 tracks july 1968 and coverart:

Perhaps this answers a few questions????

Fleetwood Mac-1969-09-24 Helsinki, Kultuuritalo & Helsinki July 1968----Upgrade from FM & 2nd Gen. Audience---------!

Friends, going through my collection, I found out,
that my F.Mac Helsinki 69 FM version has 1 song more & is sounding different (better?) than the previous upload from last year!
I also added the audience portion from the same show and all I have from Helsinki 1968!
This is a nice addition to the recent phantatistic F.Mac 8/70 uploads!
Mp3 samples below!


Tracklist:
1969-09-24 Helsinki, Kultuuritalo:
01. Homework
02. Man Of The World,
03. Like It This Way,
04. Only You,
05. I Believe My Time Ain't Long,
06. Stranger Blues,
07. All over again aka "I´ve got a good Mind to give up living"
08. Oh Well,
09. Comin' Your Way,
10. Shake your money Maker*(not incl in previous upload)
11. Albatross,
12. Great Balls Of Fire (Tape flaws )
13. Jenny, Jenny/cut´s early
------Audience portion:
14. Before the Beginning
15. Rattlesnake Shake
16. Loving Kind
17. Great Balls of Fire(same version as FM version above)
18. Keep a Knockin´
19. Closing Anouncements
Helsinki July 1968 Audience:
20. If you let me love you
21. Something Inside of Me
22. Jigsaw Puzzle Blues
23. Stop Messing arround

Peter Green - Guitar, Vocals
Jeremy Spencer - Guitar, Piano, Vocals
Danny Kirwan – Guitar, Vocals
John McVie - Bass
Mick Fleetwood - Drums

Lineage:
FM:Unknown (low) Gen. Cassette-Nak BMX300-PDR-05 – EAC –Cool Edit- FLAC
Aud: 2nd Gen Cass. :same as above
No EQ!

Transferred, Mastered & Uploaded to Dime May 14, 2006!



Enjoy this piece of F.Mac History!

[BklynBlue]

Wouter, thanks for that -
I have seen the breakdown that you have listed but the date of September 24th is almost certainly incorrect – the did tour the U.K. during September and October, including dates in Ireland, but nowhere else.
I also believe that these are two different shows. The thirteen are one show, the nine listed by Ms. Moose another. I am uncertain how the order of the nine got switched up...

The two versions of “Great Balls of Fire” are not the same – although the running time is almost the same, they are clearly two different performances. The guitars and even Spencer's vocal is different on the two. Also, after the first, the band retunes and then goes into “Keep-a-Knockin’”. On the second, they go almost immediately into “Jenny Jenny”.
If the nine are from Helsinki in April of 1969, it would be mean that they were performing “Rattlesnake Shake” with the “Madge” section before they cut it in the studio !
Hard to believe it could be from April of 1970 though, as by that time, they were already incorporating “Underway” and all of the versions from 1970 run over twenty minutes in length.
Curiouser and curiouser….

[zoork_1]

Originally Posted by Ms Moose

[...]... And it is in finnish as far as I can hear. It differs from the other scandinavian languages in that it is a slavic not than a nordic language, and has its own tone and ... [...]

It's finnish to my ears.

I did split up this "potentially" mixed bootleg, and kept "Rattlesnake Shake", "Before the Beginning", "Loving Kind", "Great Balls of Fire" and "Keep a Knocking" in a 1970-04-03 Kulttuuritalo, Helsinki folder.

The rest ("If you let me love you", "Something Inside of Me", "Jigsaw Puzzle Blues" and "Stop Messing Around") went to a Helsinki 1968-07-xx folder...

Though, I suspect "Rattlesnake Shake", "Before the Beginning", "Loving Kind", "Great Balls of Fire" and "Keep a Knocking" were recorded at Kulttuuritalo 1969-11-11. (It's said that FM did two shows 11/11, and at least one included Man of the world

/z

[sharksfan2000]

Originally Posted by BklynBlue

Hard to believe it could be from April of 1970 though, as by that time, they were already incorporating “Underway” and all of the versions from 1970 run over twenty minutes in length.

There were a couple of shows very late in that 1970 European tour where "Underway" was split out into a separate number - on 28 March in Copenhagen and 1 April in Stockholm (at least according to the generally-accepted dates/venues for those bootlegs). But you're correct about the length of the "Rattlesnake Shake/Madge" in any case - that 1 April 1970 Stockholm version was still over 20 minutes even without "Underway" included. So that's still a good clue, since the performance in question was just under 9 minutes. I think we can rule out the April '69 date since there are no live recordings of "Rattlesnake Shake" that I know of before October '69.

[Wouter Vuijk]

Originally Posted by zoork_1

It's finnish to my ears.

Though, I suspect "Rattlesnake Shake", "Before the Beginning", "Loving Kind", "Great Balls of Fire" and "Keep a Knocking" were recorded at Kulttuuritalo 1969-11-11. (It's said that FM did two shows 11/11, and at least one included Man of the world

/z

Dinky Dawsons list does not mention nov. 11 1969 as a possible date for a FM venue:
1969 11 8 Nov 8 Denmark Copenhagen K. B. Hallen
1969 11 13 Nov 13 BBC Top of the Pops
But then.....who knows.

So confusing....
When you feel that you're losing......
.......your mind
(FREE, Child)

[Ms Moose]

Wouter and Zoork1, you mention this:

Helsinki July 1968 Audience:
20. If you let me love you
21. Something Inside of Me
22. Jigsaw Puzzle Blues
23. Stop Messing arround

21 and 22 are Danny Kirwan numbers, but Danny Kirwan hadn't even joined FM then. He joined in September 1968.

Ms Moose

[Wouter Vuijk]

Originally Posted by Ms Moose

Wouter and Zoork1, you mention this:

Helsinki July 1968 Audience:
20. If you let me love you
21. Something Inside of Me
22. Jigsaw Puzzle Blues
23. Stop Messing arround

21 and 22 are Danny Kirwan numbers, but Danny Kirwan hadn't even joined FM then. He joined in September 1968.

Ms Moose

You are so right!!!! Why didn't I think of this
So, there rises another problem: when and where do these 4 recordings originate????

[zoork_1]

Think I've passed this info before, but who knows...

Found these comments around a year ago or so:

"I've collected some background info about this recording since it was last seeded.
The correct date is 1969-11-11. The band played twice that night and the late show was recorded and broadcasted in national radio by YLE (Finnish Broadcast Company).

I don't how the date Sept. 24 has been attached to this recording. Fleetwood Mac's previous concerts in Finland were in March 1969 and November 1968."


"My main source for the 11/11 date is the local newspaper from 1969. Other sources
confirm that date. The support act was a local band called Black Flag of Utopia."

So maybe 4 songs/DK's songs are from November 1968?

/z

[librax2]

Originally Posted by Wouter Vuijk

I downloaded this from Dime, 19 tracks (including the closing anouncements mentioned) with bonus 4 tracks july 1968 and coverart[/I]

Any other place to get this? Dime won't accept connections from Comcast in Florida

[BklynBlue]

Zoork 1-
that is really good information - the November 11 1969 makes much more sense - Hjort says the tour ended on November 8th, and there are no concert listings after that until they head to the U.S. in December.
It is perfectly possible that Hjort missed that show (and others) - it is the best and most logical explanation and it certainly fits with the way the band is playing -

I have been listening to the band's performances of 'Coming Your Way' and the number evolved in a rather straight forward manner in concert, starting off at a break-neck speed and then, beginning at Buxton, slowing down and then about two weeks later, at the Essen Festival, beginning to grow longer, the break becoming more rhythmically complex - the "Helsinki" version seems to split the difference between Buxton and Essen, but I am still willing to believe it is from November

That time frame also nicely accounts for "Rattlesnake Shake" they were just beginning to expand upon at that time -

As to the four numbers, starting with 'If You Let Me Love You' I would venture to say that they may also be from one of the "two shows" performed that night - there is really nothing distinct in the performances of the other numbers to help us place them - but "If You Let Me Love You" will show up early in the American tour starting in December in a different arrangement

that soothes my OCD for now - until someone comes along and blows a huge hole in that theory!

[doodyhead]

did anyone consider that this might be a live compilation mixed in together?
just a thought

doodyhear