Anyone Else...

[GreenMagic]

The only thing that troubles me about the accusations is Mick and John knowing about it.

I understand to maintain peace in a band you stay out of each other's personal lives. (EX: The Beatles never vocally passed Judgement on John when he divorced Cyn. Even though privately they thought it was crappy the way he handled the divorce)

Hypothetically, if I am in a band, I stay out of a fellow band mate's perosnal life. But when I see or get strong evidence of him being physically abusive to people, there will be a talk or something worse.

Josh Homme from Queens Of The Stone Age kicked out a long time band member when he had irefutable evidence the dude was beating his girlfriend. Josh gets the highest respect from me for doing that. I understand being loyalty to friends.

But loyalty can only go so far if the person is harming other people. As stated previously, I would've confront Lindsey about it. Told him to clean his act up or he's history.

I understand John and Mick need to make a living. But your financial needs should never overtake your conscience. So if they really did know about Lindsey pulling that stuff at the time, they lose a lot of respect from me.

To reassure, I'm fine with Lindsey now. He's clean and worked on himself. Based on that effort I can forgive him for past transgressions. But Mick and John who are the big decision makers in the band abetting Lindsey's behavior at the time? I'm not so sure...

[Nico]

Originally Posted by GreenMagic

reluctant to keep following Lindsey as an artist following Ken Callait's book?

Sorry I forgot to introduce myself. I've been lurking here the last couple of months but never bothered to register till now. As you can tell from my name I'm a huge fan of the Peter Green Era.

I used to be dismissive of the Rumours lineup years ago. Cause my musical tastes tended to be more Alternative, Post Punk Art rock stuff like My Bloody Valentine, Roxy Music, X, Public Image Limited. And then years ago I got into Power Pop like Big Star Raspberries and The Beach Boys.

It wasnt until hearing Tusk I became a fan of the Stevie Lindsey lineup. I can appreciate Rumours and self-titled album now. Although I'm majorly burnt out on those two because of radio, grocery stores playing them to death. And I loved Lindsey's solo stuff.

Anyway, getting back to what I was saying. I read Carol Anne's book and thought it had too many holes in it for her accusations of Lindsey's to be true. Then reading Ken's book, he talks about Lindsey getting mad and choking him. He also discusses how another girlfriend beside Carol accused Lindsey of hitting her.

To be fair I guess, Lindsey was doing lots of coke at that time into the 80's. From what I've seen with my family members abuse. coke can ramp you up. Make you irritable easily and more violence prone. And in Anne Heche's book she never mentioned any physical abuse form Lindsey. So I'm pretty sure he was clean the time he dated Anne.

So, a lot of the physical abuse could have been induced from drugs. I just dont know anymore. If Ken's saying abuse took place, I'm inclined to believe him. I dont think he has any reason to lie.

I'm lost. Even if it was brought on by drug abuse, I'm not sure I can behind someone who hits women. I understand musicians are human. I look the other way most of the time when it comes to minor indiscretions. I love Bob Dylan and Bruce, but they are/were huge womanizers. I dont care about that cause most musicians are.

The only thing that can stop me from being a fan is spousal/child abuse. I stopped liking John Lennon when I found out he severely verbally abused Julian.

Should we look the other way and keep being fans of Lindsey if his physical abuse was in the past and induced by major drug abuse? I guess I need some perspective.

Hi GreenMagic. I appreciate the honesty of your post and I will give my honest opinion on the matter...

Yes, I will absolutely continue to follow Lindsey's career despite Ken's book. First and foremost, Lindsey Buckingham is what keeps me in the Mac fandom in the first place. His Mac music, solo music, his musicianship, and all the many amazing contributions he has made to music in general: I am utterly grateful. I've also seen him live about 14 times and each time he just blew me away more.

As regards his personal life, I think Lindsey has done a 180 and grown into a far happier person. His children adore him, his family seems darling and sweet and apparently they make him tremendously happy and have inspired a great deal of energy in him. So I couldn't be more pleased, as a fan.

In terms of what is in Ken's book, I obviously don't condone abuse of any kind. But this was a time and a place that none of us can even try and fathom an understanding of. Ken Caillat worked closely with FM, sure, but he wasn't dealing with whatever issues LB was obviously fighting inside of him. I mean, he had epilepsy, was ingesting copious amounts of cocaine and hard liquor, and was dealing with the fallout of a great love and working with said lover on a consistent basis, in a very intimate way (I would say songwriting qualifies as so, and Lindsey was as close to a songwriting partner for Stevie with all he did musically to her songs). So, no, I won't make excuses for his behavior, but I will try to understand. He had issues. He's probably still fighting some of them.

I met Lindsey more than a few times and he is such an awesome, sweet guy. I don't think any of us know these celebs personally. If I had to pick apart every horrible quality of each one of them...well, there wouldn't be much to like in the end. Bob Dylan was abusive to his wife, Sara, but I can't help but be touched by the entirety of Blood On The Tracks and feel his pain. John Lennon wasn't the greatest father to Julian, but he was struggling to overcome the pain of his own tumultuous upbringing and, in the end, tried to set it right. And even though they weren't perfect, John is still my favorite artist of all time and Bob is still one of my favorite songwriters.

The list can go on and on. Writers, poets, musicians, comedians, actors, etc. These people are just humans that screw up. It's when they seem to not care enough to make amends, or seem to find pleasure in hurting others who haven't the power to stop/control them that I really shake my head. But I can still love the art. I don't think Lindsey is a monster, nor any more wicked than the other members of FM. He was a young guy who did some stupid s*** and he's come a LONG way and turned into a pretty awesome guy in the long run.

An awesome guy who still creates flawless music. I'm definitely an LB girl and I regret nothing.

[GreenMagic]

Thanks Nico for your post.

I agree with most of it just a few things though. Bob wasn't abusive to Sara in the physical sense. He cheated on her constantly in the last years of their marriage. But that happened when he returned to the road.

Before then, he surprisingly had been faithful. But once you start touring old temptations die hard. As far as any abuse I think you are talking about the slap Sara claimed in divorce documents.

I found through some sources close to the Dylans that it was a lie. That Sara made that up as a tactic to get sole custody of their kids. Which is why their divorce documents when officially got finalized got sealed. Cause there were revisions made such as taking that incident out once there was a settlement.

I dont blame Sara. I can see how hurt she was by Bob's philandering. And she didnt feel the kids would be in a stable environment given Bob's touring. Sara and Bob actually breifly reconciled in the 80's. But they decided they were better off friends and remain so to this day. Bob took Sara to the Golden Globes back in 2000.

Also there hasnt been any other accounts of Bob pulling any Lindsey type stuff with women. He was still womanizing according to his ex-girlfriends but that was it. Don't get me wrong, Bob has his personal flaws.

But womanizing is a flaw I can live with compared to the other horrid things I've read some of my former heroes do. I'm fine with Lindsey and willing to look past it since he seems to be in a better place.

As far as John Lennon, I've read too many repulsive things he did in his personal life. It really tainted the music for me. But if you can get past it that's awesome. I can't mainly because some of the same tragedies that happened to him I experienced as well. And I never used it as an excuse to be terrible to people. Guess I'm too close to be objective.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by GreenMagic

Thanks Nico for your post.

I found through some sources close to the Dylans that it was a lie. That Sara made that up as a tactic to get sole custody of their kids. Which is why their divorce documents when officially got finalized got sealed. Cause there were revisions made such as taking that incident out once there was a settlement.

I don't know if Sara lied or not, but that's the reason I don't believe everything that I read. People lie and you never know what their incentives might be. Even in well-documented cases you don't know. For instance with Woody Allen, it's a fact that he cheated on his girlfriend with her underage daughter, but all the stuff that Mia later said about him to gain sole custody of the son they had together was very suspect. After he had been publicly exposed once, it was easy to accuse him of pedophiliac behavior and to be believed by some, if not most, without offering much evidence in the way of support. Like snowballs that grow, rolling stones do tend to gather moss and it's often hard to find your way back to the core of truth.

Michele

[Nico]

Originally Posted by GreenMagic

As far as John Lennon, I've read too many repulsive things he did in his personal life. It really tainted the music for me. But if you can get past it that's awesome. I can't mainly because some of the same tragedies that happened to him I experienced as well. And I never used it as an excuse to be terrible to people. Guess I'm too close to be objective.

I have an issue with this. Not because I don't think John committed sins and made errors, but the fact that you've chosen to believe every word of what has been written against him. Those who knew John the best-including his ex-wife- had incredibly wonderful things to say about him. Most of what has "tainted" his image was written by people who never even knew him. But to each his/her own. I am not going to judge another person's mistakes. And I don't feel that because my childhood may seem , on surface, similar to said person's childhood that that gives me some advantage where the judging is concerned.

Each person deals with a tragedy in their own way. There is no outline that will give us a deep understanding of an individual's pain or grief, how they react to bad situations, or how these situations affect them. Just as you explained allegations against Bob, I would like to stand up for John. He was not evil, nor did he commit despicable things in his life. He wasn't a great father to Julian and he wasn't the best husband to Cynthia. But he was not the ONLY musician who made mistakes, so I can't say that his errors have tainted any of his (flawless) music for me.

Leaving this post with Ringo:

“I was a big fan of John. I always felt he had the biggest heart, and he wasn’t the cynic that people thought… And he was the fastest. He was in and out. While we were still getting in, he was out and on to the next round.”

[GreenMagic]

@Nico -

I want to restate I genuinely that's good if you can look past John's mistakes. I want to stress I'm not trying to change your mind with what I'm about to say.

Just to explain in more detail why I feel the way I do. In Cynthia's book Johm she describes an incident Julian told her about that happened at his birthday party in 79.

They were having a good time. And someone did something humorous. Julian starts laughing hard. Without warning, John screams "Shut up! Stop laughing. I hate the way you f---ing laugh. Don't do that ever again."

John wasnt the subject of the humorous event BTW. This event traumatized Julian for years. Where he would never laugh in public. He only got over it once he got older. Oh yeah, he also left Julian out of his will. Real classy move there.

Also, when John was going through his immigration issues, Bob Dylan vocalized his support in the media for John to be able to stay. He also wrote a letter to the president encouraging him to make John a legal citizen of the united states.

How does John reward that friendly gesture? He slags Dylan off in interviews once he comes out of his house-husband phase. Then writes Serve Yerself as a takedown on Bob.

I actually enjoyed the satire of Serve at first. Until I read about what Bob did for john. I was bewildered like anyone else when Dylan went through his born again phase. But in retrospect I think he went crazy cause of the divorce from Sara. And I think like he mentioned in chronicles with recording a country album then being pictured in israel to alienate people so they would leave him alone.

I think the christian period was partly the same. He was tired of being worshipped again so to speak. And I think he knew that going into Christian music would alienate his audience. But I think he was lost mentally and vulnerable. A combination of those factors I think lead him into being born again.

But eventually he snapped out of his depression and went back to Judaism. Getting back to my point, regardless of what Dylan was doing at the time, for John to be so vindicative in such a vulnerable period was wrong.

You dont treat friends that way. Also reading Geoff Emerick (beatles engineer) book he was very unjustly nasty to him. There is also the fact he helped in getting Paul busted for weed. (Though Yoko did most of the dirty work). And the reason was because Paul told John on the phone he was staying in the same hotel room that him and Yoko stayed in. He was afraid of Paul ruining his good karma there. John was heavily into mysticism and astrology at the time thanks to Yoko Those are just a few of the incidents.

Again, not trying to change your mind Nico, just explaining my point of view. I kept trying to look the other way. But when you find out more and more negative things about John coming from his own friends/family/colleagues it just becomes a buzzkill.

The man is a brilliant musician. I think he wrote some of the greatest songs ever. He lost touch with his own humanity. That is too disturbing to not let it distract me from enjoying his music.

Again, props to you Nico for staying true to John. I can't sadly enough. At least Lindsey worked on himself to his credit. So in the end I can still enjoy his work.

[Nico]

Yikes. I have so many things to say to all you wrote. Much of what you have written are merely half-truths and not even true (not necessarily your fault). Also, it seems you are taking something very silly/satirical and making it into something intentionally created to hurt, i.e.,"Serve Yourself". (You do realize that that particular song was not even released by John, right? That was just done in good humor in his bedroom or kitchen...yep, such was the utter brilliance of that man that throwaways could be taken that seriously.) Artists are not that anal about every little song/poem/word written about them. In any case, Geoff Emerick was, and remains, a Paul lackie. He hardly criticized John to the extent he slagged off George Harrison, dragged Ringo through the dirt, and brushed off George Martin's genius. I really don't pay him any mind. As far as what John did to Julian...parents can mess their kids up with very random acts of cruelty. What you fail to focus on is that John and Julian started getting very close towards the end of his life, that he made a valid effort to bond with his son, and that he had become an incredible father to his son Sean. People grow up, and John definitely did. I'm kind of done talking about it on here. PM me if you want to discuss further, as this is your Lindsey thread and I want to respect other Ledgies' desire to read about the Mac and not gossip about John Lennon's life- much of which is exaggerated and meant to hurt him post-mortem.

[ButterCookie]

Originally Posted by Nico

Not because I don't think John committed sins and made errors, but the fact that you've chosen to believe every word of what has been written against him. Those who knew John the best-including his ex-wife- had incredibly wonderful things to say about him. Most of what has "tainted" his image was written by people who never even knew him. But to each his/her own.

This is the most important thing in this thread for me. I think unless someone knows Lindsey, or anyone famous, personally and has experienced the matter in question first hand then everything you read about them should perhaps be taken with a pinch of salt. Even if they say it themselves. The media is a cruel mistress.

Personally, nothing I have read about Liddy has made any difference to the way I listen to his music (except maybe "I was not shacking up!" because just the way Stevie said that makes me giggle every time) because like lots of other people who've said the same, his work and his personal life are two separate things to me.