Stevie Nicks: Turning Rainbows into Music and Music into Gold

[David]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Yes, La Nicks was jilted by FM when SS was not put in the record.

I guess so, but there's something in that perspective that I do not & never did understand: the idea that SILVER SPRINGS was only Stevie's achievement. No matter how hard I try, I cannot for the life of me consider a track the solely the songwriter's achievement, especially in Stevie's case. The most amazing part of the track isn't the lyrics or the singing (good as they are) but the orchestration -- the sound conception. The whole band (& their engineers) rise above the run-of-the-mill pop track. That's why I see its removal from the track list as a bummer for all of them. But those more prone to grand romanticist narratives prefer good guys & bad guys & Danielle Steele in all of it. Ah, well. We all choose our fictions, & I happen to prefer mine to Steele's.

On edit - I do not think LB was jumoing for joy when SS was taken off of the record. I am just saying that privately he may have had some joy at seeing La Nicks have some pain.

Like the time Stevie enjoyed it when her first solo album went to No. 1 & Lindsey's first solo album sputtered out prematurely? Betcha she enjoyed that! Or the time Christine's song YOU MAKE LOVING FUN went to the top of the charts -- she must have enjoyed that, too. Everyone was a snot from time to time, I would imagine.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by David

I guess so, but there's something in that perspective that I do not & never did understand: the idea that SILVER SPRINGS was only Stevie's achievement. No matter how hard I try, I cannot for the life of me consider a track the solely the songwriter's achievement, especially in Stevie's case. The most amazing part of the track isn't the lyrics or the singing (good as they are) but the orchestration -- the sound conception. The whole band (& their engineers) rise above the run-of-the-mill pop track. That's why I see its removal from the track list as a bummer for all of them. But those more prone to grand romanticist narratives prefer good guys & bad guys & Danielle Steele in all of it. Ah, well. We all choose our fictions, & I happen to prefer mine to Steele's.

Judging from the interviews, La Nicks seemingly took it the hardest - saying it was her beautiful song, etc. But, I am sure they were all disappointed on some level, though the other four sans La Nicks seemed to talked of it in a matter of fact manner around the time of The Dance.

Originally Posted by David

Like the time Stevie enjoyed it when her first solo album went to No. 1 & Lindsey's first solo album sputtered out prematurely? Betcha she enjoyed that! Or the time Christine's song YOU MAKE LOVING FUN went to the top of the charts -- she must have enjoyed that, too. Everyone was a snot from time to time, I would imagine.

1. To my knowledge, CM and La Nicks were never romantically involved. Nor did they go through a bitter break up. So, that analogy is not really accurate.

2. I have always thought La Nicks was not vindictive. I just do not get that vobe from her. Nor did she ever say she had the urge not to help LB, which clearly she contributed to his songs as well though she did not produce them. Moreover, she dumped him and the dumpee is always more bitter right after being dumped as opposed to four years later

3. Dreams, not You Make Lovin' Fun went to the top of the charts

But, who was bitter and who was not is all conjecture.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

He said he had the urge not to want to help her, which is bitterness. He also said around the time of The Dance that their relationship was no longer bitter, it was bittersweet or something like that. There are many more, but, he clearly was bitter around the time Silver Springs was recorded. Anyone would be

Well, he said he found it hard to help her sometimes, which I don't necessarily see as bitterness, so much as he said it was like picking at an open wound and not having the space to get any closure from her. He has talked about the pain and difficulty of working with an old lover, not anger or "bitterness." Stevie has claimed he was angry with her and wouldn't help her on songs, but Lindsey never said he was bitter. Saying that their relationship used to be "bittersweet" is not tantamount to saying he was bitter towards her.

And while I think it might have been painful for Stevie to have SS taken off the album, I wouldn't say that she was "jilted" in any fashion, considering her representation on the album. Would it have been better to have SS on in place of IDWTK? Yes, but seeing as how the song dropped was replaced with another song of hers, I don't see how she was deliberately snubbed or jilted by the decision.

Did Lindsey get pleasure out of having her distressed? Well, she was upset about a lot of things back then and so was he. If they got pleasure over seeing each other unhappy, I doubt that they needed to have Silver Springs for that. There were a lot of other things that made both of them miserable that they could get satisfaction out of.

Furthermore, Lindsey's never talked about SS and Stevie has never even really talked about Silver Springs in terms of Lindsey per se. She has always talked about the band collectively on that one. She blames him for a lot of things, but she has never singled him out for the blame on having the song kicked off of the album and if she could pin that on him specifically, I think she would. She has always acted like she thought the band wronged her on that (and Mick compounded the matter later, by not letting her use SS for her solo album), not Lindsey as an individual. Even Daniel's book was talking about the band as a whole, not Lindsey.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

2. I have always thought La Nicks was not vindictive. I just do not get that vobe from her.

Seriously? Forget all of her interviews which contain such a vibe, just look at the songs and what she says about them. She herself admits to bitterness in songs like POTU, not to mention the more recent FFG (which she describes as the most angry song she's ever written) and Dreams and SS itself. The whole, you'll go to your grave wishing you still had me, sound of a heartbeat driving you mad as you remember what you had and what you lost and not being able to escape the sound of a woman who loved you mentality . . . I don't see all that as coming from someone of a completely non-vindictive character.

Michele

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Well, he said he found it hard to help her sometimes, which I don't necessarily see as bitterness, so much as he said it was like picking at an open wound and not having the space to get any closure from her. He has talked about the pain and difficulty of working with an old lover, not anger or "bitterness." Stevie has claimed he was angry with her and wouldn't help her on songs, but Lindsey never said he was bitter. Saying that their relationship used to be "bittersweet" is not tantamount to saying he was bitter towards her.

I view petty behavior the same as bitterness. But, to each their own.

Originally Posted by michelej1

And while I think it might have been painful for Stevie to have SS taken off the album, I wouldn't say that she was "jilted" in any fashion, considering her representation on the album. Would it have been better to have SS on in place of IDWTK? Yes, but seeing as how the song dropped was replaced with another song of hers, I don't see how she was deliberately snubbed or jilted by the decision.

Perhaps jilted is too strong a word, though I tend to think she might not agree. But, who knows for sure? Maybe she felt slighted in that they did not take off a CM or LB song and she felt she had little power in the band at the time.

Originally Posted by michelej1

Did Lindsey get pleasure out of having her distressed? Well, she was upset about a lot of things back then and so was he. If they got pleasure over seeing each other unhappy, I doubt that they needed to have Silver Springs for that. There were a lot of other things that made both of them miserable that they could get satisfaction out of.

I pretty much cannot think of anyone who has recently been dumped who would not get just a tiny bit of satisfaction knowing that the person who dumped (jilted?) them was in pain that the dumpee played even a tiny part in and for valid reasons.

Originally Posted by michelej1

Furthermore, Lindsey's never talked about SS and Stevie has never even really talked about Silver Springs in terms of Lindsey per se. She has always talked about the band collectively on that one. She blames him for a lot of things, but she has never singled him out for the blame on having the song kicked off of the album and if she could pin that on him specifically, I think she would. She has always acted like she thought the band wronged her on that (and Mick compounded the matter later, by not letting her use SS for her solo album), not Lindsey as an individual. Even Daniel's book was talking about the band as a whole, not Lindsey.

I do not think I said anyone but the band (sans Stevie) met and decided to take SS off of the record. I mean you have to admit, it was pretty cr*ppy of them to make the decision without her and then not have the sand to tell her as a unit I do not think, though, that LB lobbied for the removal of SS however and I never said or implied that. But, it is interesting that the Nicks song gets removed from the record without discussing it with her and then they edit Sara, another Nicks song, on Tusk.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Seriously? Forget all of her interviews which contain such a vibe, just look at the songs and what she says about them. She herself admits to bitterness in songs like POTU, not to mention the more recent FFG (which she describes as the most angry song she's ever written) and Dreams and SS itself. The whole, you'll go to your grave wishing you still had me, sound of a heartbeat driving you mad as you remember what you had and what you lost and not being able to escape the sound of a woman who loved you mentality . . . I don't see all that as coming from someone of a completely non-vindictive character.

Michele

Let me clarify, I think she has emotions like everyone else. I said that in response to La Nicks not wanting CM or LB to succeed. I do not think she is that vindictive. I also do not think LB is that vindictive that he would not want them to succed as well. I am just saying he may have gotten some personal satisfaction as seeing the girl who just dumped him in some pain - on some level no matter how small. Again, this is not anything anyone would not feel no matter how wrong it is to feel that.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I view petty behavior the same as bitterness. But, to each their own.

But where is the petty behavior? He said it was hard to help her some time because their break up was an open wound. He never said that he didn't help her. He said it was painful. You view that as petty, but I view it as pretty normal. Stevie herself said that seeing Lindsey in the breakfast room with another woman made her absolutely sick to her stomach. They have both described times when it was difficult to be around each other when their relationship was over. What's petty about that?

Stevie has said that he didn't help her on her songs, but she's never pointed out the specific songs where he allegedly didn't help her, whereas both Mick and Christine have pointed out the songs, Gypsy, Sara, Dreams, etc. where he knocked himself out helping her.

As far as your point that she never refused to help on any of his songs, all she ever did was sing back up on his songs. She didn't have to produce them. She didn't refuse to do it, but she complained for decades about singing on GYOW and I don't think he ever complained about singing back up on any of her songs, even when they were directed at him.

So, I don't see the bitterness you speak of, but if it was bitterness, there was no one way street about it.

And no you never said that Lindsey was singlehandedly behind getting SS kicked off the album, but I was just puzzled as to why, when the book excerpt did not mention Lindsey, you singled him out as getting singular satisfaction from the incident, when there's nothing that any band member has ever said that suggests that he did. But I now see that you were just making an observation about human nature and figured he must have been happy about it because she was unhappy and he probably liked seeing an ex-lover unhappy. Well, I see that as a stretch, but thanks for clarifying.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I am just saying he may have gotten some personal satisfaction as seeing the girl who just dumped him in some pain - on some level no matter how small. Again, this is not anything anyone would not feel no matter how wrong it is to feel that.

I don't think most people feel that way. I think you usually want someone to be in pain that has some relation to what you are in pain about. I mean, if my ex-lover married someone else and then I found out his marriage was miserable, I'd probably get some satisfaction out of that. It would prove that he couldn't be as happy with anyone else as he was with me. But if he broke his leg, I don't think I'd be happy about that, since that doesn't have anything to do with our relationship and doesn't make him rue the day our love ended.

Well, if he broke his leg because he tripped in the shoes that his new girlfriend gave him -- maybe I'd get some pleasure out of that, but . . . otherwise.

Generally though, I don't see how having Stevie unhappy over SS gave Lindsey any satisfaction over their break up, since the 2 are so completely unrelated.

Michele

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by michelej1

. . . You view that as petty, but I view it as pretty normal.

It is possible to be both - in fact, it often is

Originally Posted by michelej1

Stevie herself said that seeing Lindsey in the breakfast room with another woman made her absolutely sick to her stomach . . . .

She said this? I am getting old

Originally Posted by michelej1

As far as your point that she never refused to help on any of his songs, all she ever did was sing back up on his songs.

Perhaps true (other than LB's the producer - we never really know how much any of them contribute) -- but she never refused it. Who knows, maybe she too had the urge not to help him with vocals. If she did, that would be both normal and petty.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by michelej1

. . . Generally though, I don't see how having Stevie unhappy over SS gave Lindsey any satisfaction over their break up, since the 2 are so completely unrelated . . . .

Nah - most guys want the b*tch who dumped them to suffer no matter in what way and however unrelated

[David]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

But, it is interesting that the Nicks song gets removed from the record without discussing it with her and then they edit Sara, another Nicks song, on Tusk.

You mean the 1979 vinyl? That's weird to single that out. Virtually all the band's tracks are edited. That isn't a Stick It To Stevie move.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

It is possible to be both - in fact, it often is

She said this? I am getting old

Stevie told Off The Record:

To break up with somebody and see them the next morning in the, hotel breakfast room, possibly with another person, uh, was about as difficult a situation as you could impossibly imagine. And for me to walk into a -- to the breakfast room and see Lindsey sitting with a girl-- I mean it was a, an instant U-turn in the first place, and uh, I mean it was- it was enough to make me absolutely ill.

But Christine also told Rolling Stone that Stevie was jealous when Lindsey went out and started getting girlfriends. Of course, Stevie has always told us how jealous Lindsey was of her boyfriends. Don Henley's flowers, etc.

Yes, it's possible to be both petty and human, but saying that working with someone felt like having a wound continually opened is not petty, so much as a just a description of a painful situation. Now, if he'd said he did not work on a song of hers, that would have been petty, but he never said he didn't and Stevie has said he wouldn't work on a song of hers because he was angry. She said there were 50 songs of hers that were awful because he never worked on them, but she never said which 50 songs they were. So, I have absolutely no proof of the pettiness.

As far as what others contribute to the album, we know a lot about what everyone contributes. They talk about it pretty frequently. I mean they will talk about how the different musical parts came together and have also talked about Stevie definitely not having a role in it. Christine said that Stevie felt left out because of it, because they would tell her not to sing now, because they were still working on the music and Stevie had nothing to do. Stevie herself said that they would leave her in a room for hours and forget she was there, because they were all working on the music. And if Stevie had been contributing anything other than vocals to Lindsey's songs, she would have been talking about it non-stop.

Now, we've discussed the group work on The Chain. I've never heard her say she did anything to Lindsey's songs except sequence them on the album. I remember her saying she dragged Lindsey and made him do back up vocals on Christine's song though. That's about it.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Nah - most guys want the b*tch who dumped them to suffer no matter in what way and however unrelated

.

I doubt that's universally true, but you do put me in mind of this She Daisy song where they talk about trashing the ex-boyfriend's car, taking some keys to it. Also, there's a more recent song. I think the one that goes, "next time maybe he'll think before he sleeps" says something about destroying the guy's car too.

Michele

[SpyNote]

I really think Silver Springs could have fit on Rumours had they be a little more creative with the editing. Silver Springs runs around 4:30, but the outro could have been edited down so that the song would run about 4:15. (Had it been a single, radio would have preferred the shorter version anyway.) After that, only a minute more would have been needed. I would have then cut:

5 seconds from the intro, 5 seconds from the outro of The Chain
20 seconds from the outro of Oh Daddy
5 seconds from the intro, 25 seconds from the outro of Gold Dust Woman

I Need to Know gets bumped to the b-side of Go Your Own Way. And voilà! Silver Springs fits on Rumours. Everyone wins.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by David

You mean the 1979 vinyl? That's weird to single that out. Virtually all the band's tracks are edited. That isn't a Stick It To Stevie move.

Sara on the vinyl I have has the whole "Hold on, the night is coming" part edited out. I do not remember anything being edited like that. In fact, nothing on the record has the word (edit) after it

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by michelej1

. . . And if Stevie had been contributing anything other than vocals to Lindsey's songs, she would have been talking about it non-stop . . . .

Because she really hammered home the point that she helped CM with a lyric on Oh Daddy. Just non stop chatter about it from 1977 until now

In the end, I think they all help each other -- a good example is the the SYW studio video where she talks about "figuring out something cool" for her harmony vocals on one of Lb's songs. That is a contribution. Moreover, had that video never aired, we likely would never have known it.