The doc!!!

[GypsySorcerer]

Originally posted by dissention
I've NEVER seen the Outkast album sell for $21.98, I think you're talking about the suggested retail price. Many, many single disc albums have the same suggested retail price, so I don't see the argument. These days, a double album is any album with an extra disc, IMO. The last Shania Twain album had two discs, as does the Outkast one. The argument that it's too expensive just doesn't hold water. I suspect that they thought a new double album from a classic rock abnd wouldn't do so hot, but I'll respectfully disagree; it would have sold the number of units.

I agree. (Hey, whaddya know?!)

I think the people who bought the album as it was released would have bought the double CD too. Mick was hopeful that the single disc would sell a couple million; I remember him implying that the double would sell 300,000-500,000, and that Lindsey was okay with that.

What is the sales total on SYW? Did it even go gold?

[wondergirl9847]

See, I didn't think she sounded the least bit sarcastic. Rather, she sounded absolutely sincere and concerned for his happiness.

I didn't mean that she sounded mean...she just had a playful sarcasm in her voice. Das all.

[BBALLGYPSY17]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
I didn't mean that she sounded mean...she just had a playful sarcasm in her voice. Das all.

And there would be no fun without that.. WOULD there? And on another note....


CHRISTY!

[cliffdweller]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Stevie's WTWCT? vocals were not Grammy worthy, I'll admit. But Lindsey's SYW vocals really made me cringe...

Yeah, but somehow they came out golden in the mix. Ah, the wonders of modern technology.

I loved Stevie's "Miranda" backing vocals--- her harmony makes that song.

[Merf]

Originally posted by cliffdweller
I KNOW!!! And imagine how many times they've done that in their lives: only Stevie, Lindsey, his guitar. I mean, every since Buckingham Nicks!! I just got this incredible sense of time, how far they've come, and still, all it comes down to is that simple equation. It gives me chills!

That was my favorite part as well. I loved how they showed the picture of the two of them in the studio while making the White album... and you hear Stevie's voice in the background and Lindsey's guitar. It really gives you such a sense of where they've been, where they are now, and where they are going as a musical duo. I thought, more than anything, this documentary brought everything full circle with them. Stevie once said that making this album and how the band is now, she and Lindsey are more like they were when they first joined Fleetwood Mac-- before things got so crazy and out of control. I thought adding that picture was a very poignant, sweet touch.

[hayley]

Originally posted by dissention
I've NEVER seen the Outkast album sell for $21.98, I think you're talking about the suggested retail price. Many, many single disc albums have the same suggested retail price, so I don't see the argument. These days, a double album is any album with an extra disc, IMO. The last Shania Twain album had two discs, as does the Outkast one. The argument that it's too expensive just doesn't hold water. I suspect that they thought a new double album from a classic rock abnd wouldn't do so hot, but I'll respectfully disagree; it would have sold the number of units.

Single disc albums NEVER retail for $21.98 unless they're some super-special fancy pants special edition. The standard price for a frontline title for most record companies (outside of UMVD) is $18.98, which has generally has a cost (before deals, co-op, etc) of around $12.00.

The general cost for a double disc album in today's climate is $24.98, with a cost of around $16. The Outkast album was made cheaper (and reflected in their royalties) due to their demographic's tendency to steal albums, let alone not wanting to spend $25 on a CD at all.

Shania Twain's CD should *not* be counted as a double disc, because it was two discs of the SAME material, with different mixes. A true double album costs more for a reason- there are twice as many songs, and TWICE the cost of recording an album. A CD with a bonus disc is simply NOT the same. A bonus disc has crap thrown onto it. Extra throw-away tracks, interviews, DVD content- all cheap.

They could've put out a double album that would've cost about $15.99 - 17.99 at retail, and they probably WOULD have sold the same amount of copies as they did with their single disc retail of $9.99-13.99, because the average FM buyer is not one whose purchase decisions are contingent on price.

Personally, I'm happy they didn't. Despite my desire as a fan to have as much material as possible, I feel that Say You Will is bloated, and agree with most critics who say that the album suffers as a result of its length. It's just too much. It's unnecessary. And despite Lindsey's pleas in the doc. that he'd be happy if it sold 300,000 copies if he's happy with the result and feels like he's grown as an artist- I don't buy it. Lindsey is FEEDING off the attention he's gained as the critical darling of FM right now, with the album and especially the attention he's receiving during the live shows.

Lindsey once released a great album that no one heard- and it crushed him. He, and the rest of the band, wanted a commercial success with this album.

I just feel like where they ended- smack in the middle between a single-disc record and a double disc record, with 18 tracks comprising the *longest single disc album physically possible* managed to be the one solution that didn't work for either of their diametrically opposite goals- the fight between commercial success and artistic freedom. I just feel like it was a compromise that managed to work for no one.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Deanna -

ITA means "I totally agree"

Thanks...hahaha...I could not figure that one out to save my life...it was driving me nuts!! haha...so yeah..thanks for the clarification.

[Miranda]

Originally posted by hayley
I feel that Say You Will is bloated, and agree with most critics who say that the album suffers as a result of its length. It's just too much. It's unnecessary. And despite Lindsey's pleas in the doc. that he'd be happy if it sold 300,000 copies if he's happy with the result and feels like he's grown as an artist- I don't buy it...

Lindsey once released a great album that no one heard- and it crushed him. He, and the rest of the band, wanted a commercial success with this album.

I just feel like where they ended- ...
...
managed to be the one solution that didn't work for either of their diametrically opposite goals- the fight between commercial success and artistic freedom. I just feel like it was a compromise that managed to work for no one.

I couldn't agree more. My only other thought...what if they had put out a double but made one disc commercial and the other more daring? It could have helped. Maybe? Critics didn't like the bloat becasue it was disjointed. The songs were too different in style to hang together on a single disc, but a double could have grouped the singles together and put the heavy stuff on another disc.

As far as the doc, I was a little disappointed. It wasn't all that. Maybe I was expecting too much?

It was too choppy. Every time things started to heat up in the studio they cut to a sunset. What the hell was that? It was 90 mins. unedited so where's the beef? They could have shown a little more of the recording process--more songs. For something that was supposed to be a double album they only seemed to be working on the same few songs in the studio.

Not enough piss and vinegar either. You know they had a lot more heated debates than the ones shown. Two spots I liked a lot showed why Stevie and Lindsey aren't together. One was him telling her how to write. Whoa baby! You'd think he'd have learend by now that's a big no-no. It shows what a control freak he still is and how stubborn she is about her songs. I loved her comparing herself to Bob Dylan. Way to go girl! The other part I liked showed them fighting through their handlers. Ha! Your people are accusing my people...blah, blah! Sadly, that part probably shows the most realisitc view of the way the band operates and probably how it's been since just before Rumours. You love someone but can only talk to them through lawyers and managers, or through your music? Not a winning situation.

Overall, the enitre doc showed despite their mature years the people haven't changed much. Lindsey's still a big baby. If I can't have my way I'm going to take my songs and go. Whaaaa! Mick's still driven by the money and will do whatever it takes to cash in. No doubt Mick was 100% behind Lindsey in the beginning to get him on board just one more time....cha-ching... stroking Lindsey's big fragile ego until LB's work was mostly done and it came time to deliver the record. Then he does the 180 and leaves the man hanging. John was as droll as ever. He's a man of few words but when he talks it's worth listening. Too bad his best friend is such a big mouth. He ruined the only words John could get in edgewise. This man needs a new best friend.

As for Stevie, I thought she shined during the whole thing. She looked great, sounded great, and kept her head level when things could have gone down hill. She came off very well overall. I was just thinking...Stevie surely had veto over what was shown of her, but Lindsey supposedly had his hands all over this thing, right? Wasn't this project his baby? Wonder if that says anything? Lindsey showed himself as the spoiled brat he sometimes is but Stevie was almost on a pedestal. Hmmm?

[k115810]

Ok, folks. Here are my thoughts on the doc.

Overall, it was endlessly fascinating for FM fans. I could watch 10 hours of this kind of "in the studio" stuff. Stuff that stood out to me:

1) I find Lindsey very interesting (he's my favorite in the group). He's really very out of touch with reality. I thought that Mick's comment of "he's never had a 2 bedroom house" hit the nail right on the head. Lindsey has either been comfortable or rich his entire life. He's never suffered for his art. If Say You Will was never released, Lindsey could sit back on songwriting royalties for the rest of his life and live very well. Mick doesn't have the monthly royalty checks coming in, and I wonder how uncomfortable those "art versus commerce" conversations are between Lindsey and Mick? Lindsey also speaks like someone who's been in a lot of therapy.

2) Stevie was not what I expected at all. She was a lot more unbending and a lot more of a "diva" than I expected. I always assumed that Lindsey was really the diva and that Stevie was more motherly and nurturing, but I thought the documentary showed them both to be pretty stubborn. When Lindsey was offerering lyrical suggestions to Stevie she was convinced from the first second that she would ignore whatever suggestion he gave.

3) Ok...this may start a controversy...but I would SWEAR that Stevie's face was digitally smoothed. There were a couple of close-ups early on that looked very soft compared to the level of detail that you would see in John or Lindsey's faces. If you pay attention to Stevie's close-ups, I think you will agree with me that her face has been smoothed in post-production. If this is true, it would be very disappointing to me. First, because it runs contrary to the very point of a documentary, and second because Stevie looks great for her age, and shouldn't try to hide the way she looks. She has nothing to be ashamed of.

4) Even though I knew a bit about the album from all of the articles and interviews, the documentary really demonstrated that this is not a Fleetwood Mac record by any stretch of the imagination. It's really a Lindsey album and a Stevie album combined. Can you really call a Lindsey song a Fleetwood Mac song if he dusts off a solo track and has Stevie put down some harmonies?

Just my initial impressions.

-Matt

[strandinthewind]

I am unsure if they digitally smoothed her face. I think a better explanation from a cost benefit point of view is Stevie was wearing studio make up everyday and was filmed with great lighting and perhaps through gauze or with an oil immersed lens. Mick and the boys do not care how they look. La Nicks does, and rightfully so as she is beautiful even without the enhancing studio magic!!!

[Miranda]

Originally posted by k115810
Ok, folks. Here are my thoughts on the doc.

Overall, it was endlessly fascinating for FM fans. I could watch 10 hours of this kind of "in the studio" stuff. Stuff that stood out to me:

1) I find Lindsey very interesting (he's my favorite in the group). He's really very out of touch with reality. I thought that Mick's comment of "he's never had a 2 bedroom house" hit the nail right on the head. Lindsey has either been comfortable or rich his entire life. He's never suffered for his art. If Say You Will was never released, Lindsey could sit back on songwriting royalties for the rest of his life and live very well. Mick doesn't have the monthly royalty checks coming in, and I wonder how uncomfortable those "art versus commerce" conversations are between Lindsey and Mick? Lindsey also speaks like someone who's been in a lot of therapy.

2) Stevie was not what I expected at all. She was a lot more unbending and a lot more of a "diva" than I expected. I always assumed that Lindsey was really the diva and that Stevie was more motherly and nurturing, but I thought the documentary showed them both to be pretty stubborn. When Lindsey was offerering lyrical suggestions to Stevie she was convinced from the first second that she would ignore whatever suggestion he gave.

3) Ok...this may start a controversy...but I would SWEAR that Stevie's face was digitally smoothed. There were a couple of close-ups early on that looked very soft compared to the level of detail that you would see in John or Lindsey's faces. If you pay attention to Stevie's close-ups, I think you will agree with me that her face has been smoothed in post-production. If this is true, it would be very disappointing to me. First, because it runs contrary to the very point of a documentary, and second because Stevie looks great for her age, and shouldn't try to hide the way she looks. She has nothing to be ashamed of.

4) Even though I knew a bit about the album from all of the articles and interviews, the documentary really demonstrated that this is not a Fleetwood Mac record by any stretch of the imagination. It's really a Lindsey album and a Stevie album combined. Can you really call a Lindsey song a Fleetwood Mac song if he dusts off a solo track and has Stevie put down some harmonies?

Just my initial impressions.

-Matt

Good take on it! You have some excellent observations, Matt.

[rhiannon1119]

I loved it! I really enjoyed the whole thing!

Michelle

[madformac]

Sounds like it was an interesting documentary.. Guess we will see it at some point in the UK...

Anyway, a couple of things I'm gonna mention from what I've read..

Firstly it seems there is not enough of John in the show which is a shame, he has that wonderful sarcastic humour that England is known for and I could listen to him talk all day long, great chap..

Secondly, Yes LB drives a very nice Mercedes but it's relative to his status. Anybody complaining about it really should take a reality check. To us it may seem expensive but Lindsey could buy one and have a fair bit of change in his pocket from one nights work entertaining us. Spending $15 on a CD to someone in a third world country would seem a gross indulgence I'm sure, so lighten up...

I didn't realise owning a Mercedes was seen as a luxury in the States, there are far too many on the roads in the UK!

Now, what they need to do is this (Mick are you listening?)

Take a bit of advice from the Rolling Stones and release a 4 DVD set with an extended version of the documentary plus a large show from the first American leg, also a European arena show (I'm thinking Earls Court 30th November ) and a gig from the sheds tour...... Sell it for $60 and everyone is a winner....

[wondergirl9847]

(I'm thinking Earls Court 30th November)

AMEN!!! LOL

No, John wasn't on it that much, but when he WAS onscreen, he had some terrific stuff to say!! Talking about Christine not wanting to be there and telling Mick to basically, shut up. LMAO!! He pretty much explained why he wasn't there much, he cannot STAND to listen to the songs being played 5 million times over and over. (Pun intended. LOL) He gets bored if he can't play his bass.

I agree with the stupid argument of the Mercedes. If he had been driving say..a Hummer or something outrageous like that...I would have been all...WTH? LOL He's never said he didn't like nice things and wanted to live like a hobo.

[Les]

I'm glad this came out. I thought if offered a perspective on everybody's point of view, which is what a documentary ought to do.

I'm just happy that John spoke. Granted it wasn't tons, but I've been missing John since he doesn't seem to talk to the press anymore.