What if? - Page 2

Wouter Vuijk · #16 11-29-2009, 05:33 PM

Face it. Peter Greens FM died when Peter left. He did not leave for no reason, he felt he did not belong there where everybody wanted him. He actually has never been the hero the way WE saw him. Thus, would he have stayed, it would not have been the band we loved, admired, worshiped, etc. etc. etc. His senstive nature combined with his talent made him who he was as a musician at that time. Also, his sensitive nature led him to part. Should he not have left the band, that would imply he wouldn't have been who he was and FM would not have been the bluesband of those days.
In the later years Peter was very much influenced by the jamming style with the Grateful Dead. This was not commercial and I'm sure they would have ended up slightly out-of-the-picture.

So, the question "What if..." is only hypothtical, no chance it would have ever been possible.

Let's just embrace the fact they were as they were, and enjoy the music they left us.

Actualy the same goes for Danny.
As for Jeremy, I agree that would Peter have stayed, Jeremy would have left the band anyway. The musical direction of the band was not his. Also the pressure would have been too much for him, I guess.

mzero · #17 11-29-2009, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wouter Vuijk

Face it. Peter Greens FM died when Peter left. He did not leave for no reason, he felt he did not belong there where everybody wanted him. He actually has never been the hero the way WE saw him. Thus, would he have stayed, it would not have been the band we loved, admired, worshiped, etc. etc. etc. His senstive nature combined with his talent made him who he was as a musician at that time. Also, his sensitive nature led him to part. Should he not have left the band, that would imply he wouldn't have been who he was and FM would not have been the bluesband of those days.
In the later years Peter was very much influenced by the jamming style with the Grateful Dead. This was not commercial and I'm sure they would have ended up slightly out-of-the-picture.

i agree completely w/ wouter on this. the idea that fleetwood mac would have been as successful and influential as led zep is a crazy dream of mick fleetwood's. if pete had stayed its likely they would have made records that resembled end of the game more than then play on. then play on was mighty strange already - rattlesnake shake being an exception rather than representative.

it couldn't have happened that way and it wasn't meant to be. zero

slipkid · #18 11-29-2009, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mzero

i agree completely w/ wouter on this. the idea that fleetwood mac would have been as successful and influential as led zep is a crazy dream of mick fleetwood's. if pete had stayed its likely they would have made records that resembled end of the game more than then play on. then play on was mighty strange already - rattlesnake shake being an exception rather than representative.

it couldn't have happened that way and it wasn't meant to be. zero

I'm sorry, I'm a sucker for "what if" threads.

You, and Wouter are probably correct. It's always been a pipe dream that Peter would've stayed drugs, or not. He told Jeremy Spencer in 1967 that he gave the name of the band to Mick and John. Peter knew he was leaving eventually, for which had more in common with Eric Clapton, than Jimmy Page. The shame of it all is that Peter Green, and Danny Kirwan could've been a songwriting force. Peter was breaking away from the blues structure with "Then Play On". Danny was more a Brian Wilson/Lennon/McCartney songwriter, with a blues feel. They would've been perfect together. Wasn't there a British music paper interview in early 1970 that Peter claimed he and Danny had already written a lot of songs yet to be recorded? With Peter Green as the attraction, FM would not have gone underground for five years. Now on to reality:

The what if scenario that made Peter Green a guitar fan cult icon, instead of a household name was his timing in leaving. Had he stayed through the end of 1970, the Boston Tea Party shows would've been released through Warner Brothers with strong publicity. FM were supposed to do a four month U.S. summer tour beginning in June that would've expanded their audience beyond the hippie ballrooms. At least giving six more months of his time would've solidified Green's reputation as a guitarist alongside Duane Allman who died a year later. The U.S. audience didn't get the same exposure the U.K., and the rest of Europe had. At least Rick Vito saw Green in his prime the one time they played in Philadelphia.

Who knows, maybe one of the concerts that never took place would've been filmed by Bill Graham. Maybe they open for the Who at Tanglewood, MA 7/7/70, instead of Jethro Tull. The entire concert was filmed. Six more months, that's all they needed. People today would still be talking about the Boston Tea Party shows along with the Allmans at the Fillmore East.

louielouie2000 · #19 11-30-2009, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wouter Vuijk

Face it. Peter Greens FM died when Peter left. He did not leave for no reason, he felt he did not belong there where everybody wanted him. He actually has never been the hero the way WE saw him. Thus, would he have stayed, it would not have been the band we loved, admired, worshiped, etc. etc. etc. His senstive nature combined with his talent made him who he was as a musician at that time. Also, his sensitive nature led him to part. Should he not have left the band, that would imply he wouldn't have been who he was and FM would not have been the bluesband of those days.
In the later years Peter was very much influenced by the jamming style with the Grateful Dead. This was not commercial and I'm sure they would have ended up slightly out-of-the-picture.

So, the question "What if..." is only hypothtical, no chance it would have ever been possible.

Let's just embrace the fact they were as they were, and enjoy the music they left us.

Actualy the same goes for Danny.
As for Jeremy, I agree that would Peter have stayed, Jeremy would have left the band anyway. The musical direction of the band was not his. Also the pressure would have been too much for him, I guess.

I think this has to be the best summation of early Fleetwood Mac I've ever read. The Green Era definitely should be looked at fondly as a moment in time... but not be overly interpreted as something it wasn't. Like you said, what made that incarnation so intriguing was it's fragile and flash in the pan nature. Had Peter been the more commercially driven, straight forward business mentality of say, Mick... then the magic wouldn't have been there. And what I mean by that is that Mick's #1 goal for the past 40 years has been keeping the band together, regardless of anything. Peter Green's agenda was to live his life in the way he felt suited him, and fortune and fame were not his goals. So to say that the band would have become huge if he would have stayed is a terrible misunderstanding of who he was. Obviously a big part of Peter's issues were mental health driven as well... but again, that is another big part of the intrigue and lore of that era.

slipkid · #20 11-30-2009, 11:40 PM

For those Pink Floyd fans who were there at the beginning ,and swear by Syd Barrett to this day, they only had that inventive band for about a year (maybe even less) before Syd went over the deep end. Yet some of his solo work is still quite good (another story). Peter Green in Fleetwood Mac almost made it to three years, and recorded a lot of material in such a short period of time.

chiliD · #21 12-01-2009, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slipkid

ChiliD thinks they would've been better than Led Zeppelin. I think they could've been equals.

No...never said "better"...."GREATER"...as in we'd be referring to them in the same reverence that we refer to Led Zep these days...and because of that, LZ wouldn't have reached that status at all. (plus, for me the best part, we wouldn't have had to put up with "Stairway To Heaven" all these years!!!)

And, we'd be asking "Clapton who?", since Peter Green would be the "household name guitarist" for all-time.

Oh...and before we forget...if it weren't for Cream, there'd be no Jimi Hendrix Experience. It was Jimi's seeing Cream that made him want a three piece band with Marshall stacks. And, in regards to Cream not being "commercial"?? Spoken by somebody who wasn't there at the time. "Sunshine Of Your Love", "Badge", "White Room", "Crossroads", "I Feel Free"....all hit singles. And, again...Cream was only together for less than 2 years (yes, TWO YEARS)...more like 18 months. Pretty influential if you ask me.

doodyhead · #22 12-01-2009, 10:13 PM

clapton was disillusioned by the pop staus of cream but certainly rode the train to stardom
if you read Hjorts quotes during the end of cream by clapton he was not playing the stuff he thought he would be and was looking to others for inspiration/guidance
the rollercoaster of fam.
peter got off as the train was leaving the station

slipkid · #23 12-02-2009, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiliD

No...never said "better"...."GREATER"...as in we'd be referring to them in the same reverence that we refer to Led Zep these days...and because of that, LZ wouldn't have reached that status at all. (plus, for me the best part, we wouldn't have had to put up with "Stairway To Heaven" all these years!!!)

To me "better" is "GREATER". Back then talent meant something, that hasn't been the case since 1981 (MTV). Image has ruled ever since.

The problem is the never to be written/produced album Peter Green, and Danny Kirwan Fleetwood Mac would've recorded to overcome "Sticky Fingers", "Who's Next", and "Led Zeppelin IV"? You see at least a year into the future beyond 5/70. I just focus on what Peter Green was supposed to accomplish with Fleetwood Mac prior to his retirement announcement. It was a heavy four month summer tour of the U.S., in support of live LP from the Boston Tea Party. It would've been the tour that made Fleetwood Mac a success in the states. If Peter wanted to leave after that, fine. His impact would've been sealed.

slipkid · #24 12-02-2009, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doodyhead

clapton was disillusioned by the pop staus of cream but certainly rode the train to stardom
if you read Hjorts quotes during the end of cream by clapton he was not playing the stuff he thought he would be and was looking to others for inspiration/guidance
the rollercoaster of fam.
peter got off as the train was leaving the station

I think both Clapton, and Green saw themselves as nomad guitarists. Unlike Green, Clapton embraced The Band, and Bob Dylan as a way out of his over powered heavy blues life with Cream. It was a smart move. He even toned it down with Blind Faith. He also played a Tele with a Strat headstock in Blind Faith, that's guitar shop worthy.

OTOH, Peter Green wanted to go back into the psychedelic haze that Clapton, and Jimi Hendrix has already experienced. He felt he had missed out while he played straight blues for at least a year and a half. The result was "End of the Game".

LukeA · #25 12-02-2009, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiliD

And, in regards to Cream not being "commercial"?? Spoken by somebody who wasn't there at the time. "Sunshine Of Your Love", "Badge", "White Room", "Crossroads", "I Feel Free"....all hit singles.

More like "spoken by someone who was talking about album sales rather than perceptions of specific songs". Yes, Chili, I've heard of all of those songs, even though I wasn't there like you were. To repeat my original point, Cream, despite the vanguard of the British Blues genre in every conceivable way, was not a commercial force in the same vein as Led Zeppelin.

**jbrownsjr** · #26 12-02-2009, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiliD

No...never said "better"...."GREATER"...as in we'd be referring to them in the same reverence that we refer to Led Zep these days...and because of that, LZ wouldn't have reached that status at all. (plus, for me the best part, we wouldn't have had to put up with "Stairway To Heaven" all these years!!!)

And, we'd be asking "Clapton who?", since Peter Green would be the "household name guitarist" for all-time.

Oh...and before we forget...if it weren't for Cream, there'd be no Jimi Hendrix Experience. It was Jimi's seeing Cream that made him want a three piece band with Marshall stacks. And, in regards to Cream not being "commercial"?? Spoken by somebody who wasn't there at the time. "Sunshine Of Your Love", "Badge", "White Room", "Crossroads", "I Feel Free"....all hit singles. And, again...Cream was only together for less than 2 years (yes, TWO YEARS)...more like 18 months. Pretty influential if you ask me.

Yeah Cream's problem was they hated each other... even in the reunion they started fighting again... They were on the verge...

billwebster · #27 12-02-2009, 03:46 PM

I'd be more interested in a "What If?" thread on the post-Rumours board along the lines of:

What if in 1991, the band had decided to record a follow-up album to "Behind the Mask" instead of putting out a boxed set.

"Love Shines" and "Paper Doll" surely would have made it onto that one - and Rick Vito probably wouldn't have left had he been allowed to contribute several new songs to the album.

Things might have been different with Stevie because of her prescription drug problem.

And we'll never know if the label would have liked the new band to put out another new album instead of "milking Rumours one more time" with the boxed set. Considering the fact that Mo Ostin and Lenny Waronker left Warners some time around 1992, it probably would not have mattered much.

Did John's Lola Thomas album begin to take shape before or after Rick Vito had left the band?

chiliD · #28 12-02-2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeA

More like "spoken by someone who was talking about album sales rather than perceptions of specific songs". Yes, Chili, I've heard of all of those songs, even though I wasn't there like you were. To repeat my original point, Cream, despite the vanguard of the British Blues genre in every conceivable way, was not a commercial force in the same vein as Led Zeppelin.

They weren't together long enough to BE that "commercial force in the same vein as LZ". Cream was broken up by the time LZ even formed. Cream had singles...Zeppelin didn't (except for the edited "Whole Lotta Love" and the non album track "Hey, Hey What Can I Do"). You'll NEVER convince me that Cream wasn't commercially viable...I was there, I witnessed it, I lived it....Cream WAS a commercial force...they just didn't last.

**jbrownsjr** · #29 12-02-2009, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiliD

They weren't together long enough to BE that "commercial force in the same vein as LZ". Cream was broken up by the time LZ even formed. Cream had singles...Zeppelin didn't (except for the edited "Whole Lotta Love" and the non album track "Hey, Hey What Can I Do"). You'll NEVER convince me that Cream wasn't commercially viable...I was there, I witnessed it, I lived it....Cream WAS a commercial force...they just didn't last.

And they didn't last because they really didn't get along....

chiliD · #30 12-02-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

And they didn't last because they really didn't get along....

...well, it was only Jack & Ginger who didn't get along. Eric got along with everybody! But, yeah, you're not going to have career longevity when 2/3 of the band is at war. Ironically, Jack & Ginger have had subsequent pseudo-Cream bands with ex-Humble Pie guitarist Clem Clempson & Gary Moore as guitarists. So, the hatred or not, they HAVE worked together pretty extensively even post-Cream.