Billboard album sales

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Compared to 'Rumours,' sure. But 4 million albums is nothing to sneeze at.

4 million is the cumulative number since its release. It was an outright flop in 1979. It wasn't even certified double platinum until five years after it was released.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

And my point was that people don't have a problem declaring 'Tusk' an unequivocal masterpiece despite the comparatively small sales and despite the haphazard running order and massive disparity between the styles of the songs from the three writers.

Once again, you're talking about big fans. I am not.

Show me a casual fan who will declare Tusk an "unequivocal masterpiece" and I will eat my hat.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I was merely pointing out that, as I see it, 'Say You Will' has something for everyone. Songs that should definitely please the fans of "Landslide," "Dreams," et al., and songs that should definitely please the fans of "Save Me A Place," "What Makes You Think You're The One" and "The Ledge," etc.

Too bad the record buying public disagrees.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

And if 'SYW' had followed hot on the heels of 'The Dance,' as 'Tusk' followed 'Rumours,' then I think it would have found a larger audience more willing to give it a chance.

I don't think so. I think if it was dropped right after The Dance, it would have sold slightly better, but the content would still have prevented it from being that big of a success.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Again... exactly like 'Tusk.'

I disagree.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I disagree... in it's original running order, 'Tusk' doesn't flow well at all. At least not to my ears.
For a nine song run, 'Tusk' is nothing but the "indulgent" extremes of Lindsey and Stevie, with Lindsey's material sounding the absolute least like ANYTHING that ever graced a Mac album before.
And Christine's last four songs almost feel like afterthoughts within the running order.

I disagree. In the flow department, Tusk blows Say You Will out of the water.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Obviously I can see why it seems that way, regarding Lindsey's songs (which I'm not at all knocking, by the way)... but I don't understand why people feel Stevie's songs also sound like solo tracks that Lindsey just happens to be singing on.

Because they do. That doesn't necessarily make them bad, dear.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

At any rate... all I'm trying to say is that I think anyone who adores 'Tusk' shouldn't have a problem adoring 'Say You Will'... just as it is.
'Tusk' and 'SYW' share almost all of the same strengths and weaknesses, aside from a lack of Christine songs on the latter.

Too bad you completely read my post wrong and thought I, for some reason, was tlaking about die hard fans. I was not

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

Ho****. We're in the same boat, then.

I think Lindsey is absolutely brilliant, and he's my second favorite artist of all time. But I don't deny that I'm thusly a little more biased towards my "#1" favorite... who happens to be Stevie.

Her recent work thrills me as much as her earlier work (sometimes moreso). As does his (also sometimes moreso).
Which is why they both remain brilliant in my eyes... whether someone wants to view that as me "prettying things up" or not.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I honestly think that you're burned out on Stevie. (Not that my armchair observations hold any water.)

I'm not burned out on Stevie, I'm simply sick of her current boring material. I still play her older material on a regular basis and that wouldn't be happening if I was "burned out" on her. I simply dislike her current mediocre offerings. To quote the Queen herself, she's a "pale shadow" of her former self in the writing department. The leaking of My Heart certainly proved as much.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

If Stevie had released a mere three solo albums over the course of the last 20+ years, then I think you'd be more inclined to appreciate what she's doing now. It would seem "fresher" and more exciting to you, perhaps.
It seems to me (again, not that my opinion matters) that your familiarity with her music has bred a level of contempt.

I see. It's not Stevie per se, it's just that she's released more crappy stuff over the years than Lindsey.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Conversely, if Lindsey was the one with six or seven albums of his channel-panning, voice-oscillations, and familiar-sounding guitar solos, then HE might be the one you'd be bored with right now.

Considering that I play his solo albums and mix CDs almost daily, I'm curious as to why I've not gotten burned out on him yet.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Your boredom doesn't negate her brilliance, my dear. *lol*

No, her lack of interesting and new ideas does.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I've been saying that for years... which is why I don't understand why folks can't just sit back and enjoy the music rather than looking for flaws with everything.

Because, my dear. This place wouldn't exist and you'd be out of a job.

[MacMan]

We interupt this conversation to bring you.....

"To loosen the bunch of you up... Head over the The Legacy in the song of the week department... There's two "New" remixes of Big Love done by Deep Dish just recently... They are really really good!!... The White Label one especially... Anyway...

This ends the interuption.....

[dissention]

C'mon, folks, flame away and get it over with.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

Show me a casual fan who will declare Tusk an "unequivocal masterpiece" and I will eat my hat.

'Tusk' seems to be an album that has impressed many a former Mac-detractor or mere casual fan. It just depends on what genre of music they tend to like best, coming into the album.
Music critics line up to declare it one of the all-time best albums... and most of those critics wouldn't be caught dead admitting they're anything more than a casual Mac fan.

Originally Posted by dissention

Because they do. That doesn't necessarily make them bad, dear.

Aside from "Running Through The Garden" and "Everybody Finds Out," which are definitely far more in keeping with her solo material, Stevie's contributions all sound like Fleetwood Mac songs to me.

Originally Posted by dissention

Too bad you completely read my post wrong and thought I, for some reason, was tlaking about die hard fans. I was not

I started out commenting on the reactions of casual fans, but I did move into commenting on the reactions of some of the diehards, too... unfortunately muddying the debate in the process. *lol*

Of course everything you've said about the public's reaction to 'Tusk' is completely true. It, too, was a "behemoth of an album" that many found very difficult to appreciate in its time.

Still, I know a lot of those casual fans eventually came to an appreciation for 'Tusk,' and many now cite it as their favorite Mac album (even as they remain simply casual fans).
So I guess I have a difficult time seeing why 'Say You Will' wouldn't hold the same appeal for those people. But perhaps it's going to take hindsight for 'SYW' to be fully appreciated, too.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

I'm not burned out on Stevie, I'm simply sick of her current boring material. I still play her older material on a regular basis and that wouldn't be happening if I was "burned out" on her. I simply dislike her current mediocre offerings. To quote the Queen herself, she's a "pale shadow" of her former self in the writing department.

It's easy to listen to a song we ALREADY love and adore, for the one millionth time... than it is to find an appreciation for something new that doesn't manage to live up to our expectations.

You tend to like things that are surprising to you... and that's cool. We all want to be surprised and impressed in some way. Stevie's material doesn't surprise you anymore, because... in my opinion... you've grown bored with her style. You want her to take left turns, and you seem frustrated that she doesn't... so your enthusiasm and interest in her music past a particular era in her career, has waned.

Originally Posted by dissention

I see. It's not Stevie per se, it's just that she's released more crappy stuff over the years than Lindsey.

Smart ass.
What I meant was that the multiple years (and sometimes decades) between Lindsey's releases, highlights the contrast between the stylistic tones of his albums.
If he had released more albums during the in-between years, then the music may have seemed far less diverse overall.

Originally Posted by dissention

Considering that I play his solo albums and mix CDs almost daily, I'm curious as to why I've not gotten burned out on him yet.

Lindsey continues to thrill you now, but I'd be interested in seeing how you still feel about him in another ten or twenty years, if he doesn't take any additional left-turns in his style or approach in a way that you find exciting or intriguing.

Originally Posted by dissention

Because, my dear. This place wouldn't exist and you'd be out of a job.

Well, that's why I keep the debates going, dissy... we have to have SOMETHING to talk about around here! But shhhh... that's just between you and me.

[hayley]

By the way, just in case anyone's interested in the actual numbers instead of rehashing the same old tired argument about why SYW sold so little, how badly WEA marketed it, etc.- here are some numbers.

Live in Boston- 58,632
Say You Will- 842,955
VBoFM- 1,002,302 (and yes- that's SS numbers, so divide it in half)
The Dance- 3,879,388
Christine McVie/In the Meantime- 19,944 (U.S. only)

All of those records with the exception of the Dance are scanning a couple hundred copies a week. The Dance still sells anywhere betwen 2K-4K on average a week.

Mick's album is so inconsequential that I'm too lazy to log into Soundscan to check the numbers.

And long ago in this thread, someone compared it to Madonna's American Life- American Life has scanned 653,238 as of last week.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by MacMan

Head over the The Legacy in the song of the week department... There's two "New" remixes of Big Love done by Deep Dish just recently... They are really really good!!... The White Label one especially...

Ooh! Thanks for the heads-up... I've been looking for these remixes!

Thanks, MacMan!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by hayley

By the way, just in case anyone's interested in the actual numbers instead of rehashing the same old tired argument about why SYW sold so little, how badly WEA marketed it, etc.- here are some numbers.

Thanks for posting these, sweetie... I love this kind of stuff. (I'm a dork)

Originally Posted by hayley

Say You Will- 842,955

Madonna's American Life has scanned 653,238 as of last week.

VERY interesting. I love Madonna too, but it's cool to see that 'Say You Will' has been more popular than 'American Life,' even if only "slightly" so.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

It's easy to listen to a song we ALREADY love and adore, for the one millionth time... than it is to find an appreciation for something new that doesn't manage to live up to our expectations.

You tend to like things that are surprising to you... and that's cool. We all want to be surprised and impressed in some way. Stevie's material doesn't surprise you anymore, because... in my opinion... you've grown bored with her style. You want her to take left turns, and you seem frustrated that she doesn't... so your enthusiasm and interest in her music past a particular era in her career, has waned.

You're absolutely spot on with many of those observations, but Stevie's lack of experimentation and failure to go beyond a certain point isn't necessarily what disappoints. What disappoints me is the fact that all of her new material is mostly the rehashing of her past work. None of it is original and it sounds like the same thing she did twenty years ago. It would be fine if she continued to put out the same old thing as long as it was good, but she's become deathly dull in her old age. I've no interest in hearing her sing about Lindsey for the millionth time, just as I really have no interest in hearing fifteen year old demos brought out of the vaults. It just all reeks of laziness and a lack of creativity. For someone who got their inspiration "back," she certainly hasn't shown it to the rest of the world, save a few fabulous songs here and there.

Stevie is never going to go ape**** like Lindsey and record something along the lines of Red Rover. She is never going to embrace a new type of music like David Bowie and make an entire album based on that one type of music. She is never going to write avant garde jazz numbers or record Indian folk songs like Debbie Harry. And I don't expect her to. All I expect is that she put out quality material and at least show us that she's capable of coming up with something new instead of just rehashing things over and over. And actually utilizing what's left of her upper register these days wouldn't hurt, either.

Stevie is artistically stagnant to me. She's not continuing on with a successful formula, she's pillaging that formula over and over and over. If that makes me a bad fan, so be it.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Smart ass.
What I meant was that the multiple years (and sometimes decades) between Lindsey's releases, highlights the contrast between the stylistic tones of his albums.
If he had released more albums during the in-between years, then the music may have seemed far less diverse overall.

Not necessarily. We can't begin to assume what sounds his non-existant albums would have contained.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Lindsey continues to thrill you now, but I'd be interested in seeing how you still feel about him in another ten or twenty years, if he doesn't take any additional left-turns in his style or approach in a way that you find exciting or intriguing.

He hasn't failed me in the past fifteen years, so I doubt he will anytime soon. And Lindsey seems the type of artist who won't be happy with his work unless it has some redeeming value in the way of originality and substance. Stevie, bless her heart, writes soemthing illogical and nonsensical in her journal and proclaims it poetry. Lindsey, on the other hand, slaves over his work until it's what he considers perfect. Sometimes he fails, sometimes he succeeds, but even when he fails I can see the blood, sweat and tears that went into making it.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Well, that's why I keep the debates going, dissy... we have to have SOMETHING to talk about around here! But shhhh... that's just between you and me.

And I always thought it was so you could try to get the last word in.

[Serrart]

Okay, total different perspective, on this too (and I'm referring mostly to their solo albums... obviously JMHO). I love surprises, creative artists who can renew themselves, but I'm not a huge Lindsey fan, I like him, but he definitely isn't daily in my playlist. It's mostly because I see the experimental strength of his work, but find it rather clueless. The academic value of some of his songs is high and I appreciate it, but for the rest he takes already made paths and can't go fast or far enough for me. Said that, great musician, great producer, no doubt.

About Stevie, Dissention sees her actual work as a 'pale shadow', I see it as another intriguing step on a very solid and nuanced creative path that is full of different seasons. Personally i love them all but I'm more intrigued by the twist that her songwriting had from 1987. Her songs on Tango in The Night are challenges to the listener, and she knew it, but in them there was a striking strength and a remarkable emotional violence, especially in Joan Of Arc (that I would have loved to have on the album) and When I See You Again. After the klonopin years those qualities started to rise again both in her performances and works, enriched by a different glance to the world. I mean, Trouble in Shangri La? Illume? Destiny Rules? No more fairies but life as it is? And vehiculated by different styles, that she doesn't try to mellow to please at all costs her long time fans who are more attached to her seventies/ early eighties works? That offers a great source of inspiration and emotions to me.

Romy

[macfan 57]

Originally Posted by hayley

By the way, just in case anyone's interested in the actual numbers instead of rehashing the same old tired argument about why SYW sold so little, how badly WEA marketed it, etc.- here are some numbers.

Live in Boston- 58,632
Say You Will- 842,955
VBoFM- 1,002,302 (and yes- that's SS numbers, so divide it in half)
The Dance- 3,879,388
Christine McVie/In the Meantime- 19,944 (U.S. only)

All of those records with the exception of the Dance are scanning a couple hundred copies a week. The Dance still sells anywhere betwen 2K-4K on average a week.

Mick's album is so inconsequential that I'm too lazy to log into Soundscan to check the numbers.

And long ago in this thread, someone compared it to Madonna's American Life- American Life has scanned 653,238 as of last week.

Thanks for the numbers. I think soundscan figures are in units sold. So the VBOFM number is the total number of units sold. You don't have to divide them in half. You just have to double that 1 million figure for the RIAA certification. It should be certified multi-platinum sometime this year.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

You're absolutely spot on with many of those observations, but Stevie's lack of experimentation and failure to go beyond a certain point isn't necessarily what disappoints. What disappoints me is the fact that all of her new material is mostly the rehashing of her past work. None of it is original and it sounds like the same thing she did twenty years ago. It would be fine if she continued to put out the same old thing as long as it was good, but she's become deathly dull in her old age. I've no interest in hearing her sing about Lindsey for the millionth time, just as I really have no interest in hearing fifteen year old demos brought out of the vaults. It just all reeks of laziness and a lack of creativity. For someone who got their inspiration "back," she certainly hasn't shown it to the rest of the world, save a few fabulous songs here and there.

We're just not going to see eye-to-eye on this. Of course, that's no surprise!

For me, her current work is far more level-headed and straightforward than her earlier writing. Her earlier writings were gauzier and more "mystical" (for lack of a better word). Her newer writings, to me, sound like the works of a woman who is far more grounded and has matured as a person and in her philosophy on life.

It doesn't sound at all like a "rehashing" to me... it sounds like a progression. You can't rehash something, when you're coming at it from a different perspective. When she revisits a past topic (Lindsey, for example), it's done in a way that reflects where she is emotionally, today.

Also, I'm not at all one of those people who thinks EVERY song is about Lindsey. Aside from the ones Stevie herself has noted were about him ("Thrown Down," and partially "Trouble In Shangri-La" and "Fall From Grace"), I just don't see it.
So I haven't gotten sick of her singing about Lindsey "for the millionth time," because I don't automatically assume that when she's singing about a relationship that didn't work out, that she therefore must be singing about Lindsey.

Every single one of her romantic relationships didn't work out in one regard or another, so she has a whole series of men she might be singing about.

Originally Posted by dissention

We can't begin to assume what sounds (Lindsey's) non-existant albums would have contained.

Using 'Tusk,' 'Mirage' and 'Tango In The Night' as middle ground for his three solo albums, the solo tracks sound much less diverse.
What he did on 'Tusk' easily leads into his 'L&O' songs, which easily lead into his 'Mirage' tunes.
'Go Insane' sounds, to my ears, like a natural progression from his 'Mirage' approach, and leads into his material on 'Tango.'
Many of the aspects of 'Tango' then foreshadow the direction he took with 'Out Of The Cradle.'

So if we had had 12 similar-sounding songs from him between each of those three solo albums, as opposed to just 5, then the "sameness" would have seemed even more profound, IMO.

Originally Posted by dissention

Stevie, bless her heart, writes soemthing illogical and nonsensical in her journal and proclaims it poetry. Lindsey, on the other hand, slaves over his work until it's what he considers perfect. Sometimes he fails, sometimes he succeeds, but even when he fails I can see the blood, sweat and tears that went into making it.

It makes sense to her, and isn't that all it really needs to do? We criticize her for making commercial (ie: relatable) music, and then blast her for not writing things we can relate to.

So, which shall it be? Lyrics that are relatable across the board, so everyone can love them... or lyrics written from the heart, and staying true to the writer's artistic impulses -- even if we can't always relate or immediately understand what the hell she's talking about?

Originally Posted by dissention

And I always thought it was so you could try to get the last word in.

Well, there's definitely that, too! But as long as I know I'm not the only one who always tries to get the last word in, then I'm safe.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

'Go Insane' sounds, to my ears, like a natural progression from his 'Mirage' approach

I won't touch anything else from your post because we'll just be here all night, but this part struck me dumb. This just makes no sense to me and we must be listening to completely different albums. His work on Mirage and Go Insane couldn't be more different if he tried. I mean, c'mon, Johnny. It sounds like a natural progression to go from Oh Diane and Empire State to Play In the Rain and D.W. Suite? From Can't Go Back to Go Insane? Ho****.