What ONE issue is most important to you in this election year?

[DeeGeMe]

Originally Posted by Patti

Ok, pardon my ignorance, but what is LIHOP/MIHOP?

Re: Shrub and 9/11:

LIHOP=Let it Happen on Purpose

MIHOP=Made it Happen on Purpose

[Tango]

You mean there are folks on board that believe the president and his party, our military, etc knew September 11th was going to happen and let it happen "on purpose?, or somehow encouraged it to happen? I'm just trying to follow.

[GypsySorcerer]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

This is one of those claims that drives me to distraction. It makes me positively furious.

With all due respect, how much do you really know about Spain? Your comment indicates that you've believed what you were fed by the neocon fascists who blame the election results on the terrorist attacks. Did the terrorist attacks influence the election? Without a doubt, but it isn't as simple as, "the terrorists attacked and the Spanish public ran scared." To suggest that is to show disrespect and ignorance toward a noble people.

Did you know that the very last polls before the election had the Socialists edging out the Popular Party, headed by then Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar?

Did you know that more than 90 percent of the Spanish public opposed Spain's involvement in the Iraq war yet Aznar sided with Bush and even contributed to disseminating the falsehoods about weapons of mass destruction? (Keep this in mind; it's an important point.)

Did you know that when the attack occur the sitting government insisted on blaming it on Basque separatists even after there was conclusive evidence the Basque separatists had nothing do with it?

Did you know that because of that the tide turned irrversibly against the party in power and gave the election to the Socialists who only a couple of terms earlier had been thrown out because of corruption?

Consider that for a moment: The Socialists get caught in corruption scandals and they get thrown out. The Popular Party a few years later lies to the public and the voters throw them out. Conclusion: Democracy is alive and well in Spain. When those in power violate the public trust, the public throws them out. When was the last time that happened in America?

Going back to the point about Aznar dragging an unwilling nation into an ill-conceived war: Did you know Spain was ruled by a ruthless dictator for many decades? Did you know that dictatorship ended less than 30 years ago? Thirty years. That means that more than half of the current population of Spain knows what it's like to live under a dictatorship. Is it any wonder then that when those in power violate the public trust they get thrown out expediently? In other words, Aznar played the role of a dictator by making the nation do what it did not want to do. The difference between this and the many years of Generalissimo Franco's dictatorship was that the people were able to get rid of the dictator.

So please, do me and everybody else a favor. Stop disseminating this fiction that the Spanish public caved to the terrorists. The Spanish public has been dealing with terrorism for many, many decades. It has never run scared from terrorists. Spain has a pretty good anti-terrorism apparatus, I daresay, better than ours.

Let's not project the American public's paralyzying, dumbing fear of terrorism to the good people of Spain, who have shown tremendous grit and stamina through many years of surviving terrorist attacks.

Well, Carne, your post is as condescending as what you claimed mine to be. You know nothing about my background, nor my education, nor what I do or do not assimilate. So please do not jump to conclusions that I am an imbecile being filled with right-wing propaganda and lies.

I could say a lot more, but I won't. Just stop belittling my opinion because it differs from yours. That's somewhat elitist of you, and we all know that liberals don't support that.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Tango

You mean there are folks on board that believe the president and his party, our military, etc knew September 11th was going to happen and let it happen "on purpose?, or somehow encouraged it to happen? I'm just trying to follow.

Absolutely. Just look at the evidence and all of the "coincidences."

Why did he go into that classroom AFTER the first plane hit? Why did he lie about actually seeing the first plane hit? Why didn't he order the planes shot down? Why did his administration do nothing after he got a PDB titled "bin-Laden determined to strike inside US"?

[Patti]

Originally Posted by DeeGeMe

Re: Shrub and 9/11:

LIHOP=Let it Happen on Purpose

MIHOP=Made it Happen on Purpose

Thanks--that was driving me crazy trying to figure it out!

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Patti

Thanks--that was driving me crazy trying to figure it out!

That's alright, the first time I heard it a couple years ago, I thought it was some sort of plastic surgery.

Now, more of that lesbian erotica "Sisters" by Lynne Cheney:

"Let us go away together, away from the anger and imperatives of men. We shall find ourselves a secluded power where they dare not venture. There will only be the two of us and we'll linger through long afternoons of sweet retirement. In the evenings, I shall read to you while you work your cross-stitch in the firelight. And then, we will go to bed, our bed, my dearest girl."

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by GypsySorcerer

Well, Carne, your post is as condescending as what you claimed mine to be. You know nothing about my background, nor my education, nor what I do or do not assimilate. So please do not jump to conclusions that I am an imbecile being filled with right-wing propaganda and lies.

I could say a lot more, but I won't. Just stop belittling my opinion because it differs from yours. That's somewhat elitist of you, and we all know that liberals don't support that.

I'm sorry if you found my post condescending. But consider this: I insulted one person, from what you tell me. You insulted a whole nation. I was merely trying to explain to you that the Spanish election is not easily dismissed as kowtowing to terrorists. You do a disservice to everyone to whom you repeat that fiction and you insult the good people of Spain.

[GypsySorcerer]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

I'm sorry if you found my post condescending. But consider this: I insulted one person, from what you tell me. You insulted a whole nation. I was merely trying to explain to you that the Spanish election is not easily dismissed as kowtowing to terrorists. You do a disservice to everyone to whom you repeat that fiction and you insult the good people of Spain.

Actually, Carne, you insulted all people who hold the same opinion as I do, but I digress...

And I did not mean to imply the Spanish people were ignorant, nor did I mean to insult them. Yes, I know Spanish support for their involvement in Iraq was low. I personally feel that the terrorist attacks pushed many of them over the edge, and perhaps swayed some undecided voters. I know you disagree, so let's just leave it at that. However, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from trying to censor what I post. Everyone here is able to draw his or her own conclusions, so I don't see why a variety of opinions expressed are a negative thing to you.

[hayley]

Originally Posted by DeeGeMe

Re: Shrub and 9/11:

LIHOP=Let it Happen on Purpose

MIHOP=Made it Happen on Purpose

Oh, and I'm proudly LIHOP/MIHOP myself, btw. It just doesn't make sense they way they'd like to have us believe it happened.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by GypsySorcerer

Actually, Carne, you insulted all people who hold the same opinion as I do, but I digress...

No, I didn't. I insulted the fascist neocons who conjured it up.

And I did not mean to imply the Spanish people were ignorant, nor did I mean to insult them. Yes, I know Spanish support for their involvement in Iraq was low. I personally feel that the terrorist attacks pushed many of them over the edge, and perhaps swayed some undecided voters.

Look, with all due respect, I personally feel a lot of things too. They are either based on fact or they are based on supposition. If they are based on fact, I am going to feel pretty good about it; if they are based on supposition I am going to acknowledge that.

Fact: Spain's government dragged the nation into a war it did not want.
Fact: Terrorists attacked Spain.
Fact: Spain's government lied to the people about the attack.
Fact: The socialists had edged ahead of the Popular Party in the polls days before the election.
Fact: Spain's voters threw the government out.
Fact: Spanish people have endured far more, and far more frequent, attacks than Americans ever have.

From these facts, it is logical to conclude that the terrorists didn't scare the Spanish people into voting a certain way. This is a not a nation easily cowed by terrorists. This is a hugely significant point. A lot of Americans see Spain's election results and immediately conclude people were scared. But how many of these Americans have bothered to try to understand the history and psyche of the nation? How many of these Americans are actually aware that Spain has endured terrorist attacks for decades?

I am merely trying to open up your mind to the idea that your assumption was wrong. You can either be defensive about my approach or you can reexamine your position on this issue. You say you didn't mean to insult the people of Spain, but the fact is you did. So while you can personally feel that Spanish voters were cowed by the terrorists, I am merely suggesting you look into the situation further and that after understanding the facts you might personally feel something different. Or at least doubt your original position.

[markolas]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

So basically you're saying, "just roll over and let him screw you"?

I suppose when it affects your life directly, it doesn't seem like a "minimal issue" at all.
My right to marry whom I love, and to receive the same health-care packages and tax benefits as heterosexual couples, is just as important to me as the War On Terrorism or the economy.

And if you don't think it's important... just talk to the homosexual partners of those who lost their lives on 9/11, who had to fight tooth and nail to be recognized, and to receive the same monetary compensation as their heterosexual counterparts.

Time and time again, we're told that we are second-class citizens... good enough to pay taxes and support the economy (and to lose our lives for our country, apparently), but not good enough to enjoy the same rights as everyone else.

But hey, what do I know... apparently I should just move to San Francisco and keep my mouth shut.

Johnny, you're so much nicer than I am. I tried to post a response to Hawkeye that didn't involve telling him to go f**k himself, but I couldn't do it.

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by DeeGeMe

Re: Shrub and 9/11:

LIHOP=Let it Happen on Purpose

meant (Do I) Love International House Of Pancakes...Which I don't

[Tango]

Originally Posted by markolas

Johnny, you're so much nicer than I am. I tried to post a response to Hawkeye that didn't involve telling him to go f**k himself, but I couldn't do it.

That's why he's a "moderator" and you're not.

[GypsySorcerer]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

No, I didn't. I insulted the fascist neocons who conjured it up.

Look, with all due respect, I personally feel a lot of things too. They are either based on fact or they are based on supposition. If they are based on fact, I am going to feel pretty good about it; if they are based on supposition I am going to acknowledge that.

Fact: Spain's government dragged the nation into a war it did not want.
Fact: Terrorists attacked Spain.
Fact: Spain's government lied to the people about the attack.
Fact: The socialists had edged ahead of the Popular Party in the polls days before the election.
Fact: Spain's voters threw the government out.
Fact: Spanish people have endured far more, and far more frequent, attacks than Americans ever have.

From these facts, it is logical to conclude that the terrorists didn't scare the Spanish people into voting a certain way. This is a not a nation easily cowed by terrorists. This is a hugely significant point. A lot of Americans see Spain's election results and immediately conclude people were scared. But how many of these Americans have bothered to try to understand the history and psyche of the nation? How many of these Americans are actually aware that Spain has endured terrorist attacks for decades?

I am merely trying to open up your mind to the idea that your assumption was wrong. You can either be defensive about my approach or you can reexamine your position on this issue. You say you didn't mean to insult the people of Spain, but the fact is you did. So while you can personally feel that Spanish voters were cowed by the terrorists, I am merely suggesting you look into the situation further and that after understanding the facts you might personally feel something different. Or at least doubt your original position.

Carne, if you would like me to "open my mind," I suggest you try a different approach. Unless you are just picking on me personally, you must feel that those who agree with me also need their minds opened along with a course in Spanish history. That is insulting and condescending.

We are beating a dead horse here. There is no way to prove either of our positions, because we were not inside every Spanish voters' head when they cast their vote. I will not further comment on the Spanish election, and I'm about done with this thread too. Have a good day, Carne.

[amber]

Originally Posted by darklinensuit

Am I the only one who is really concerned about health care? I hate the fact that my insurance is linked to my job. If I quit or get fired, it should have no bearing on my insurance, IMO. And don't even get me started on the number of folks without insurance. It's ridiculous.

- Jake

No - would you like to buy one of my plastic bubbles to live in? That's what I do, and they're more convenient than you might think. They can cut down your doctor visits by at least 80%! I also don't use my teeth anymore, the wear and tear of eating, as we all know, leads straight to the dentist's pocket! for the past 6 mo. I've been extensively studying how to use herbs and spells to heal yourself - powdered chicken's feet are cheaper than you think! I'm also studying self-acupuncture. The bleeding and bruises are a bit messy, but i'm sure saving money!
Amber