Competition

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by David

I could probably count the instances on one hand -- two hands at most -- of genuinely piano-driven songs in the Fleetwood Mac catalog. To say that the Mac's music from 2003 on is guitar-driven instead of piano-driven is to confound definitions & concoct facts out of rhetorical stances, a habit I noticed in many of the press writeups of "Say You Will," too.

The fact of the matter is that Christine's piano/keyboards rarely took center stage in the band's music on album, & even more rarely did so on the concert stage. Actually, "Say You Will" contains a lot more keyboard & synth hardware on it than many, many older Fleetwood Mac albums. Christine's absence means absolutely nothing in terms of keyboard & synth use or overuse: tracks like "Everybody Finds Out," "Goodbye Baby," "Illume," "Say You Will," "Peacekeeper," "Smile at You," "Running Through the Garden," "Silver Girl" & "Destiny Rules" all have very prominent keys & synth parts, & are every bit as "keyboard-driven" as anything on "Tango in the Night."

If anything's different, it has nothing to do with Christine. In the old days, a good many keyboardy textures were actually created on guitars (as Lindsey has verified), whereas on the latest album, the keyboardy textures were most if not all of them created on keyboards & workstations -- many of which were even played by people who aren't in the band!

Christine's basic style in the old days was to lay back in the rhythm section. "Piano-driven" music is stuff like Elton John & Billy Joel. Fleetwood Mac was virtually never that. Even on songs like "The Way I Feel" or "Songbird," the piano is back in the mix & combined with an acoustic guitar, which just builds a general sort of texture rather than "driving" the track.

Another misimpression is that 2003 Fleetwood Mac is harder-rocking than in the past. I mean, come on. Did you _see_ a Rumours or a Tusk show?

The final misimpression is that the band now emphasizes individual voices over harmonies. Well, blow me down & call me a cab! These days, you have Stevie, Lindsey, Sharon, one or two other ladies & even one or two of the male backup musicians -- not to mention triggered voices & harmonies -- all vying for sonic space up there on stage. You didn't have that during Christine's heyday with the band. You had three singers who occasionally decided to sing harmonies together (like on "The Chain" or the "Go Your Own Way" chorus) but who more often than not let the individual voice of the lead singer on a song essentially carry it.

To prefer the band these days to its past with Christine is perfectly fine. I enjoy the debates -- bring 'em on! But why stock your reasons with concocted scenarios that never existed? Cite your *real* reasons: "I don't like Christine's songs, so I'd rather not hear them live -- especially if it's in place of one of Stevie's songs or one of Lindsey's songs." People talk about the old days with Christine as if the band sounded like Elton John pounding his way through "Burn Down the Mission" at Dodger Stadium.

All I said was that you implied that I was happy Christine was gone. I say I didn't. Simple as that. My impression of the music on SYW? Is that it's harder and more rocking than previous studio releases. Many people who were saddened by CM's departure state the three part harmonies as one of the reasons why the loved the Rumours era so much. I said I prefer the individual voices.

In any case, the whole reason why I mentioned the initial argument was to illustrate my point that Christine McVie fans are just as guilty as the Chiffonheads and Buckinghamaniacs of being overly defensive of their chosen favorite (not reignite the initial argument). This little tiff has only served to illustrate that same point to a far greater degree than I could have done on my own. So, HomerMcVie, if you read this, I thank you for that.

[Miss Vicky]

To respond more directly to your post:

Originally Posted by David

Another misimpression is that 2003 Fleetwood Mac is harder-rocking than in the past. I mean, come on. Did you _see_ a Rumours or a Tusk show?

Obviously not. Having been born in 1981 it was impossible. In any case I was referring to studio releases, not live performances.

Originally Posted by David

Cite your *real* reasons: "I don't like Christine's songs, so I'd rather not hear them live -- especially if it's in place of one of Stevie's songs or one of Lindsey's songs."

Gee, you know me so well. Once again, I was not referring to live performances but rather studio releases. Also there are two things about the above quote that I find quite amusing: 1) You are saying this to someone who has a reputation for being a "Stevie Hater" and 2) I was so happy that Christine was gone that I bought "In the Meantime."

For the record: I wouldn't be heartbroken if Stevie OR Lindsey left Fleetwood Mac either.

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by chiliD

The closest I've heard to that is Stevie herself playing "Rhiannon"...the last track on the Enchanted box.


The only "piano-driven" track by Fleetwood Mac (not counting ballads of the "Songbird" ilk), that I can think of off the top of my head is "Say You Love Me". Whoa! Ok...of course, as I'm typing a couple more come to mind..."Sara" & "Don't Stop".

Why are we "not counting ballads of the "Songbird" ilk"? They're just as much Fleetwood Mac tunes as anything else in the catalog.

[David]

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky

All I said was that you implied that I was happy Christine was gone.

Not me. You were talking to Homer McVie. I just jumped into a thread to post my thoughts. It's a beautiful thing -- these Web forums!

In any case, the whole reason why I mentioned the initial argument was to illustrate my point that Christine McVie fans are just as guilty as the Chiffonheads and Buckinghamaniacs of being overly defensive of their chosen favorite (not reignite the initial argument).

Unquestionably. The overdefensiveness affects everyone ... even Char.

Say, what ever happened to Char?

[David]

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky

Why are we "not counting ballads of the "Songbird" ilk"? They're just as much Fleetwood Mac tunes as anything else in the catalog.

You guys are both defining "piano-driven" differently from me.

A track with a prominent piano on it doesn't automatically make it "piano-driven" -- at least not in my purview.

[David]

Originally Posted by chiliD

The closest I've heard to that is Stevie herself playing "Rhiannon"...the last track on the Enchanted box.

Now I'll forever describe the piano "Rhiannon" as Stevie's "Burn Down the Mission"!!

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by David

Not me. You were talking to Homer McVie. I just jumped into a thread to post my thoughts. It's a beautiful thing -- these Web forums!

Actually, we're both wrong. That post to which you referred was my response to SteveMacD implying that I was glad Christine was gone. Instead of implying that I'm glad she's gone, you've flat out stated that you believe that. My apologies.

[glitter_fades]

Originally Posted by David

I could probably count the instances on one hand -- two hands at most -- of genuinely piano-driven songs in the Fleetwood Mac catalog. To say that the Mac's music from 2003 on is guitar-driven instead of piano-driven is to confound definitions & concoct facts out of rhetorical stances, a habit I noticed in many of the press writeups of "Say You Will," too.

The fact of the matter is that Christine's piano/keyboards rarely took center stage in the band's music on album, & even more rarely did so on the concert stage. Actually, "Say You Will" contains a lot more keyboard & synth hardware on it than many, many older Fleetwood Mac albums. Christine's absence means absolutely nothing in terms of keyboard & synth use or overuse: tracks like "Everybody Finds Out," "Goodbye Baby," "Illume," "Say You Will," "Peacekeeper," "Smile at You," "Running Through the Garden," "Silver Girl" & "Destiny Rules" all have very prominent keys & synth parts, & are every bit as "keyboard-driven" as anything on "Tango in the Night."

If anything's different, it has nothing to do with Christine. In the old days, a good many keyboardy textures were actually created on guitars (as Lindsey has verified), whereas on the latest album, the keyboardy textures were most if not all of them created on keyboards & workstations -- many of which were even played by people who aren't in the band!

Christine's basic style in the old days was to lay back in the rhythm section. "Piano-driven" music is stuff like Elton John & Billy Joel. Fleetwood Mac was virtually never that. Even on songs like "The Way I Feel" or "Songbird," the piano is back in the mix & combined with an acoustic guitar, which just builds a general sort of texture rather than "driving" the track.

Another misimpression is that 2003 Fleetwood Mac is harder-rocking than in the past. I mean, come on. Did you _see_ a Rumours or a Tusk show?

The final misimpression is that the band now emphasizes individual voices over harmonies. Well, blow me down & call me a cab! These days, you have Stevie, Lindsey, Sharon, one or two other ladies & even one or two of the male backup musicians -- not to mention triggered voices & harmonies -- all vying for sonic space up there on stage. You didn't have that during Christine's heyday with the band. You had three singers who occasionally decided to sing harmonies together (like on "The Chain" or the "Go Your Own Way" chorus) but who more often than not let the individual voice of the lead singer on a song essentially carry it.

To prefer the band these days to its past with Christine is perfectly fine. I enjoy the debates -- bring 'em on! But why stock your reasons with concocted scenarios that never existed? Cite your *real* reasons: "I don't like Christine's songs, so I'd rather not hear them live -- especially if it's in place of one of Stevie's songs or one of Lindsey's songs." People talk about the old days with Christine as if the band sounded like Elton John pounding his way through "Burn Down the Mission" at Dodger Stadium.

Why are you boring us with the facts?

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by David

You guys are both defining "piano-driven" differently from me.

A track with a prominent piano on it doesn't automatically make it "piano-driven" -- at least not in my purview.

And thus, with multiple definitions of terms, this ridiculous argument cannot ever reach an actual conclusion. Therefore, let's call it a draw, shall we?

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky

Actually, we're both wrong. That post to which you referred was my response to SteveMacD implying that I was glad Christine was gone. Instead of implying that I'm glad she's gone, you've flat out stated that you believe that. My apologies.

What's really funny is that I was just answering your question of how anybody COULD imply you were glad she was gone. No, you didn't say you were glad, but a case could easily be made that you made the implication.