Time

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Funny thing about Dave Mason is that I actually like his songs on Time way better than I like his solo stuff up until that point.

While he is my least favourite FM member, I do accept that after FM he became a hell of a lot "cooler" than in the years before. Perhaps Mick saw that potential and it just wasn't realised until he left FM? Plus, from the occasional old clip that I've seen he really was a damn fine guitarist even if you don't usually get to see that side of him.

His "Time" with Fleetwood Mac was so bizarre to me. I was more familiar with him through his association with Cass Elliot of the Mamas and Papas. That band wrote the reference road book for the interpersonal relationships, dysfunction and indulgences that Fleetwood Mac would experience a decade later. In 1972 Dave and Cass together released a great album. How could I ever imagine him joining Fleetwood Mac?:

[becca]

Originally Posted by PenguinHead

His "Time" with Fleetwood Mac was so bizarre to me. I was more familiar with him through his association with Cass Elliot of the Mamas and Papas. That band wrote the reference road book for the interpersonal relationships, dysfunction and indulgences that Fleetwood Mac would experience a decade later. In 1972 Dave and Cass together released a great album. How could I ever imagine him joining Fleetwood Mac?:

Off the top of my head I remember that Dave Mason was in a beat type group The Hellions about when Mick was in The Cheynes, maybe their paths crossed a fair bit starting then. When he was with Traffic they were famous for going out into the country communally living and working to get their sound together, which example FM followed at Kiln House and then Kinfauns. Dave never quite jelled with Traffic and left, and returned, and left again. Not surprising he didn't fit in Fleetwood Mac really either. Not really a group kind of person it would seem, he wrote alone and just needed others to record, that sort of situation.

He had some fairly sizable hit compositions... Feelin' All Right and Hole In My Shoe with Traffic. You Can All Join In was also popular. Solo he charted with his 'Alone Together' album on the Blue Thumb label (home also of Love and Dan Hicks at the time among others) and We Just Disagree got lots of airplay in the late '70s. He also played second guitar on some Jimi Hendrix sessions.

The album with Cass is a gem I think but have seen it totally slagged by some, if nothing else it has it's own unique sound in a sea of early '70s conformity, and some genuinely interesting lyrics that would have been at home on a Television album. I'd never part with it myself!

The Mamas & Papas really set the bar high for self-destructive behaviours it's true, Buckingham and Nicks are fly weights really next to Papa John finding Mama Michelle in bed with Papa Denny shortly after they'd signed a multi album deal with Dunhill. Cass had a thing for Denny who just about killed himself in a drunken motorcycle accident the next day (and you can see his chest bandage in some early promo photos). All this before the first album release. Basically Cass got out of there as soon as possible which was having fulfilled the Dunhill contract (only they added a fifth album on to it and she had to go back). John almost killed her making her do endless takes in the studio, and the pressure to diet on top. The same people helped kill Karen Carpenter is all I can say.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by becca

Off the top of my head I remember that Dave Mason was in a beat type group The Hellions about when Mick was in The Cheynes, maybe their paths crossed a fair bit starting then. When he was with Traffic they were famous for going out into the country communally living and working to get their sound together, which example FM followed at Kiln House and then Kinfauns. Dave never quite jelled with Traffic and left, and returned, and left again. Not surprising he didn't fit in Fleetwood Mac really either. Not really a group kind of person it would seem, he wrote alone and just needed others to record, that sort of situation.
.

Don't think it was that he didn't jell with Traffic, I think it was more that there was some serious mutual dislike between he & Steve Winwood, which apparently had its roots back when Dave was a roadie for the Spencer Davis Group. Why Steve wanted to include Dave in Traffic in the first place was kind of a mystery in itself.

Even Eric Clapton, when forming Derek & The Dominos, pretty much tossed him to the curb, telling the press in a very graceful way that Dave was "a great songwriter & needed his own band". Dave had played on the two songs of their first single ("Tell The Truth"/"Roll It Over"*) that got recalled the same day it was released for some reason (both were really good songs, I thought). He was in the studio with the rest of the Dominos during the sessions for George Harrison's All Things Must Pass...also, Dave had been playing along with Clapton in Delaney & Bonnie and Friends...when Eric got the heart of the D&B band to be Dominos, I think Dave kind of assumed he'd be a Domino, too.

That he spent so many months nagging Mick to let him in Fleetwood Mac is kind of odd, considering he's NOT really made to be a sideman or band member. He seems to be made of the cloth that wants to call the shots.

(and considering his history with Steve Winwood, I'm surprised that he was so bent out of shape for not being included in Traffic's 1994 reunion tour; basically since he was already on the road with Fleetwood Mac at the time)



*=(the single versions of those songs can be heard on Eric's first Crossroads box set and the recent 40th Anniversary deluxe edition of Layla & OALS)

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by chiliD

That he spent so many months nagging Mick to let him in Fleetwood Mac is kind of odd, considering he's NOT really made to be a sideman or band member. He seems to be made of the cloth that wants to call the shots.

He probably assumed Christine's role would be limited to a couple of songs, and Bekka was still wet behind the ears, so he probably thought he WOULD be calling the shots. Having Billy come back changed everything.

[becca]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Why Steve wanted to include Dave in Traffic in the first place was kind of a mystery in itself.

Jim Capaldi was with Dave in The Hellions, I think probably the Traffic project grew from The Hellions to a certain extent.

I know Winwood was very unfond of the Hole In My Shoe single getting a lot of airplay, feeling it was not representative of the Traffic sound. I know they did contribute to at least one of Mason's songs with Traffic but seems to have been under duress for him to share credit or collaborate.

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by becca

Off the top of my head I remember that Dave Mason was in a beat type group The Hellions about when Mick was in The Cheynes, maybe their paths crossed a fair bit starting then. When he was with Traffic they were famous for going out into the country communally living and working to get their sound together, which example FM followed at Kiln House and then Kinfauns. Dave never quite jelled with Traffic and left, and returned, and left again. Not surprising he didn't fit in Fleetwood Mac really either. Not really a group kind of person it would seem, he wrote alone and just needed others to record, that sort of situation.

He had some fairly sizable hit compositions... Feelin' All Right and Hole In My Shoe with Traffic. You Can All Join In was also popular. Solo he charted with his 'Alone Together' album on the Blue Thumb label (home also of Love and Dan Hicks at the time among others) and We Just Disagree got lots of airplay in the late '70s. He also played second guitar on some Jimi Hendrix sessions.

The album with Cass is a gem I think but have seen it totally slagged by some, if nothing else it has it's own unique sound in a sea of early '70s conformity, and some genuinely interesting lyrics that would have been at home on a Television album. I'd never part with it myself!

The Mamas & Papas really set the bar high for self-destructive behaviours it's true, Buckingham and Nicks are fly weights really next to Papa John finding Mama Michelle in bed with Papa Denny shortly after they'd signed a multi album deal with Dunhill. Cass had a thing for Denny who just about killed himself in a drunken motorcycle accident the next day (and you can see his chest bandage in some early promo photos). All this before the first album release. Basically Cass got out of there as soon as possible which was having fulfilled the Dunhill contract (only they added a fifth album on to it and she had to go back). John almost killed her making her do endless takes in the studio, and the pressure to diet on top. The same people helped kill Karen Carpenter is all I can say.

Wow. You know your stuff, And I learned a lot more about Dave Mason's history. Thanks for the info. Glad to find a Ledgie who has extensive knowledge of the Mamas and Papas. In Matt Greenswald's book about them contains a rare photo I gave to him. My name is credited under it, but it's not PenguinHead! And you're probably right about them being more debouched than Fleetwood Mac ever was.

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by becca

Off the top of my head I remember that Dave Mason was in a beat type group The Hellions about when Mick was in The Cheynes, maybe their paths crossed a fair bit starting then. When he was with Traffic they were famous for going out into the country communally living and working to get their sound together, which example FM followed at Kiln House and then Kinfauns. Dave never quite jelled with Traffic and left, and returned, and left again. Not surprising he didn't fit in Fleetwood Mac really either. Not really a group kind of person it would seem, he wrote alone and just needed others to record, that sort of situation.

He had some fairly sizable hit compositions... Feelin' All Right and Hole In My Shoe with Traffic. You Can All Join In was also popular. Solo he charted with his 'Alone Together' album on the Blue Thumb label (home also of Love and Dan Hicks at the time among others) and We Just Disagree got lots of airplay in the late '70s. He also played second guitar on some Jimi Hendrix sessions.

The album with Cass is a gem I think but have seen it totally slagged by some, if nothing else it has it's own unique sound in a sea of early '70s conformity, and some genuinely interesting lyrics that would have been at home on a Television album. I'd never part with it myself!

The Mamas & Papas really set the bar high for self-destructive behaviours it's true, Buckingham and Nicks are fly weights really next to Papa John finding Mama Michelle in bed with Papa Denny shortly after they'd signed a multi album deal with Dunhill. Cass had a thing for Denny who just about killed himself in a drunken motorcycle accident the next day (and you can see his chest bandage in some early promo photos). All this before the first album release. Basically Cass got out of there as soon as possible which was having fulfilled the Dunhill contract (only they added a fifth album on to it and she had to go back). John almost killed her making her do endless takes in the studio, and the pressure to diet on top. The same people helped kill Karen Carpenter is all I can say.

To add to the drama, Michelle was fired from the group soon after the success of their first album because she was ****ing around with The Byrd's Gene Clark. They did a few shows and started recording a new album with her replacement , Jill Gibson, their producer Lou Adler's girlfriend. They even had an album cover mocked up with Jill in it. Michelle begged her way back into the group. The resulting album has vocals with both Michelle and Jill. And Cass got busted for bringing pot to the UK, and their shows there were cancelled. She died, while on a solo tour in London in the same apartment Keith Moon died in years later.

Two years later, after they had all gone their separate ways, each of them was sued for a million dollars because they walked away from their record contract while owing the company one more album. They had to regroup one more time to avoid the law suit. What really sucks for fans is that there are no bootleg recordings of any of their live shows (which were very few in their short-live career -about 35 concert appearances in total). There is hardly any information about their shows, tour schedules, set lists, reviews etc...only one or two photos of them on stage.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by PenguinHead

What really sucks for fans is that there are no bootleg recordings of any of their live shows (which were very few in their short-live career -about 35 concert appearances in total). There is hardly any information about their shows, tour schedules, set lists, reviews etc...only one or two photos of them on stage.

Do you know about the Monterey International Pop Festival box set from 1992? Their entire set, with a cameo from Scott McKenzie, is on it. You can find them on eBay.



ETA: Here's the set-list

Straight Shooter
Got a Feelin'
California Dreamin'
I Call Your Name
Monday, Monday
San Francisco (Be Sure to Wear Flowers in Your Hair)
Dancing in the Street

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Do you know about the Monterey International Pop Festival box set from 1992? Their entire set, with a cameo from Scott McKenzie, is on it. You can find them on eBay.



ETA: Here's the set-list

Straight Shooter
Got a Feelin'
California Dreamin'
I Call Your Name
Monday, Monday
San Francisco (Be Sure to Wear Flowers in Your Hair)
Dancing in the Street

Thanks! I fully aware of it. I have several copies of it, including a rare original poster from the event. They also performed Somebody Groovy. A few years ago a DVD set was released, featuring the Festival movie, as well as amazing outtake performances and interviews. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to transport themselves back to a the height of the flower power era.

It was only recorded for the documentary of the Festival. ( John and Michelle were on the board of directors.) This was in the latter part of their career. Busy working the Festival, they didn't have time to rehearse for the show, even though they were the headliners featured to close the 3 day event.

Denny flew in from Canada at the last moment before they appeared on stage. To make matter worse, Jimi Hendrix performed prior to them, and the stage was left in a mess. There were technical problems, including Michelle's mike being faulty. And it wasn't their normal touring band,which consisted of the much lauded/in demand Wrecking Crew.

They went on to do a few more live shows before disbanding. But they sadly admitted that this was their worst performance. How ironic that it is their only performance ever recorded. They prided themselves for being able to reasonably replicate their record performances live on stage, despite all the studio overdubs.

Lots of bands from their era have archives/bootleg live shows. But the Mamas & Papas weren't a heavy road band (they have their fill of that in their struggling folk days). They did a few short, small show stint tours in big markets over a two year span -1966-1967.

But there is no evidence of these shows anywhere, other than a few news clips/reviews. It would be a like finding the holey grail if a recording one of their shows when they were at their peak surfaced. There is almost no documentation - not even of their set lists. It's very frustrating for fans.

[becca]

Hey PenguinHead...

I'm sure I've seen some clips of Cass and Dave Mason doing material from their album on some old tv show. It flashed by in some documentary about Cass. I wonder if there might be anything full length on YouTube? She also appeared with John Sebastian on some show doing Darling Companion. There is a version of 'Didn't Want To Have To Do It' with Cass on lead vocals that was recorded in NYC between the Mugwumps ending and the Lovin' Spoonful forming, in fact there are two takes one where she doubles the vocal is the better... nice guitar by Sebastian and/or Zal on it too! Let me know and I could shoot them to you via email if you don't have them. I think the Ms&Ps really didn't like themselves live because they couldn't double or triple the vocals as they sometimes did in studio. The Fifth Dimension benefited from inheriting all their studio people, so something good came out of their big bust up.

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by becca

Hey PenguinHead...

I'm sure I've seen some clips of Cass and Dave Mason doing material from their album on some old tv show. It flashed by in some documentary about Cass. I wonder if there might be anything full length on YouTube? She also appeared with John Sebastian on some show doing Darling Companion. There is a version of 'Didn't Want To Have To Do It' with Cass on lead vocals that was recorded in NYC between the Mugwumps ending and the Lovin' Spoonful forming, in fact there are two takes one where she doubles the vocal is the better... nice guitar by Sebastian and/or Zal on it too! Let me know and I could shoot them to you via email if you don't have them. I think the Ms&Ps really didn't like themselves live because they couldn't double or triple the vocals as they sometimes did i TVn studio. The Fifth Dimension benefited from inheriting all their studio people, so something good came out of their big bust up.

Sorry for not responding sooner.

What TV show Cass and Dave were on? Was it live or lip-synced? I can't recall ever seeing it.

I discovered the two versions of Didn't Want to Have to Do It years ago. Thank you for the offer though! I could never place the time frame they were recorded.

Her duet, Darling Companion, with John Stewart was a performance on her first TV special, which also featured Joni Mitchel,Mary Travis (of Peter,Paul and...),and others. A DVD of the show was released a few years ago. She made one more TV special that hasn't been released. Hopefully it will see the light of day.

By the time the Mamas and Papas became successful, they were individually road weary from touring in their various folk groups. Their records and TV appearances were keeping them in the public eye. Their entire existence lasted only three years but produced four albums. Their tours consisted of series of short stints of five or six shows in major markets. Cass was quoted,saying they that worked really hard to sound much like their records when they performed live.

Of course they couldn't exactly replicate the craftsmanship of their studio records, musically or vocally, in a live performance, but it's reasonable to think they could still sound good. The messy Monterey Pop performances reveals a glimmer of evidence to that notion ( despite no rehearsals and Michelle's faulty mike). Their issue wasn't about the quality of their live performances. It was because they really weren't much of touring band. And much like Fleetwood Mac, their group dynamic was fraught with tension.

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by becca

Hey PenguinHead...

I'm sure I've seen some clips of Cass and Dave Mason doing material from their album on some old tv show. It flashed by in some documentary about Cass. I wonder if there might be anything full length on YouTube? She also appeared with John Sebastian on some show doing Darling Companion. There is a version of 'Didn't Want To Have To Do It' with Cass on lead vocals that was recorded in NYC between the Mugwumps ending and the Lovin' Spoonful forming, in fact there are two takes one where she doubles the vocal is the better... nice guitar by Sebastian and/or Zal on it too! Let me know and I could shoot them to you via email if you don't have them. I think the Ms&Ps really didn't like themselves live because they couldn't double or triple the vocals as they sometimes did in studio. The Fifth Dimension benefited from inheriting all their studio people, so something good came out of their big bust up.

Sorry for not responding sooner.

What TV show Cass and Dave were on? Was it live or lip-synced? I can't recall ever seeing it.

I discovered the two versions of Didn't Want to Have to Do It years ago. Thank you for the offer though! I could never place the time frame they were recorded.

Her duet, Darling Companion, with John Stewart was a performance on her first TV special, which also featured Joni Mitchel,Mary Travis (of Peter,Paul and...),and others. A DVD of the show was released a few years ago. She made one more TV special that hasn't been released. Hopefully it will see the light of day.

By the time the Mamas and Papas became successful, they were individually road weary from touring in their various folk groups. Their records and TV appearances were keeping them in the public eye. Their entire existence lasted only three years but produced four albums. Their tours consisted of series of short stints of five or six shows in major markets. Cass was quoted,saying they that worked really hard to sound much like their records when they performed live.

Of course they couldn't exactly replicate the craftsmanship of their studio records, musically or vocally, in a live performance, but it's reasonable to think they could still sound good. The messy Monterey Pop performances reveals a glimmer of evidence to that notion ( despite no rehearsals and Michelle's faulty mike). Their issue wasn't about the quality of their live performances. It was because they really weren't much of touring band. And much like Fleetwood Mac, their group dynamic was fraught with tension.

[SteveMacD]

I just skimmed the liner notes again and saw Neale Heywood mentioned.

This album gets weirder every time I look at it.

[Turn It On]

I've always found Lindsey to be the most bizarre addition to Time. What was it he did, again? Backing vocals on Nothing Without You? Yeah, weird.

I also find it funny how everyone conveniently forgets about Lindsey's contributions to Time, BTM and The Chain Boxset whenever they talk about his time away from the band.

[Mr Scarrott]

Originally Posted by Turn It On

I've always found Lindsey to be the most bizarre addition to Time. What was it he did, again? Backing vocals on Nothing Without You? Yeah, weird.

He's credited as being on Nothing Without You but I can barely make him out on that track. The odd thing is that I swear I can hear his voice on Winds of Change too. If it's not Lindsey, I don't know who it is. I asked Richard Dashut- no response though.

Lindsey's Hitchcockian blink-and-you-miss-it vocal backing on Paper Doll enhances the song, but only just. It's not the greatest, is it?